New Butterfly Vario

dan,

i believe that you are wrong. this in no way makes you a bad person for being wrong. i think your starting to get it now. this rule is simply not going to survive as it stands. its just bad (the cell phone thing too).

grammer (capitalization, etc) is rarely a concern for me from a cell phone as I travel throughout the day. i really dont care about editing this stuff. if you dont like it, dont read it. i type once and move on. get over it. is that all you have now? lol! but i guess you are trying to call me dumb in your own little way there, huh dan? ok. fine.

dan, this is not a personal thing with anyone (at least with me). it is a very healthy argument and is worthwhile. just because you dont like it i should take your example (which i highly doubt) and stop? it has meaning to many and there are alot of people who share my opinion. it is really about a principle we apparently do not share. safety focus or pure competition? trust pilots or dont. go with technology smoothly or fight it tooth and nail as old foggy's have with every new advancement in this sport and others for years (gps, vario's, smartphones, etc)

i vote safety in favor of honest sportsman. let people use AH if they choose, its more of a pain in the ass to remove them now then not allowing them.. they are everywhere. i vote to let new technology such as smart phones in (as literally everyone has them right now as I type) rather than making everyone instead go to walmart and screw around buying some other useless cheapy phone for the contest. come on guys! seriously? this clearly is really going to irritate alot of people as you can already see. its so dumb its literally sad. the rules committee has been focused on safety recently in certain areas but it needs to refresh a few more rules in order to be consistent. these two rules (no ah and no smart phone) clearly stand out as not focused on safety. not to mention they are dumb rules based on today's reality.

do you really think that a pilot with a smartphone is going to be flying in the clouds and disseminating weather information well enough to win contests? is this the same protest the slow movers in soaring had to electronic vario's in the 70's and GPS in the 90's? i praise tom k for standing up and calling out the rule in the past but that does not make the rule right. and i did not hear a peep from anyone in the 3 contests i flew last season. why...because its a dumb rule and only a couple people care about it.

lets not be dumb anymore everyone. lets be smart and change these silly rules and move on. ;-)

Sean
F2

On Feb 17, 8:14*am, Sean Fidler wrote:
dan,

i believe that you are wrong. *this in no way makes you a bad person for being wrong. *i think your starting to get it now. *this rule is simply not going to survive as it stands. *its just bad (the cell phone thing too).

grammer (capitalization, etc) is rarely a concern for me from a cell phone as I travel throughout the day. *i really dont care about editing this stuff. *if you dont like it, dont read it. *i type once and move on. *get over it. *is that all you have now? *lol! *but i *guess you are trying to call me dumb in your own little way there, huh dan? *ok. *fine.

dan, this is not a personal thing with anyone (at least with me). *it is a very healthy argument and is worthwhile. *just because you dont like it i should take your example (which i highly doubt) and stop? *it has meaning to many and there are alot of people who share my opinion. *it is really about a principle we apparently do not share. *safety focus or pure competition? *trust pilots or dont. *go with technology smoothly or fight it tooth and nail as old foggy's have with every new advancement in this sport and others for years (gps, vario's, smartphones, etc)

i vote safety in favor of honest sportsman. *let people use AH if they choose, its more of a pain in the ass to remove them now then not allowing them. *they are everywhere. *i vote to let new technology such as smart phones in (as literally everyone has them right now as I type) rather than making everyone instead go to walmart and screw around buying some other useless cheapy phone for the contest. *come on guys! *seriously? *this clearly is really going to irritate alot of people as you can already see. *its so dumb its literally sad. *the rules committee has been focused on safety recently in certain areas but it needs to refresh a few more rules in order to be consistent. *these two rules (no ah and no smart phone) clearly stand out as not focused on safety. *not to mention they are dumb rules based on today's reality.

do you really think that a pilot with a smartphone is going to be flying in the clouds and disseminating weather information well enough to win contests? *is this the same protest the slow movers in soaring had to electronic vario's in the 70's and GPS in the 90's? *i praise tom k for standing up and calling out the rule in the past but that does not make the rule right. *and i did not hear a peep from anyone in the 3 contests i flew last season. *why...because its a dumb rule and only a couple people care about it.

lets not be dumb anymore everyone. *lets be smart and change these silly rules and move on. *;-)

Sean
F2

I propose a compromise: If you can suffer without your gyros for one
more season, I will put a question on the Fall pilot opinion poll. We
can ask pilots if they would like to remove the ban on carrying cloud-
flying instruments. While the poll is advisory, not a vote on the
rules, such a poll would give all of us a much clearer view of the
matter. Would pilots prefer the "safety" option of having a gyro
installed, or the reassurance that other pilots are not using their
"safety" instrument to win contests? Let's find out.

Then we could get off this topic for a season and go flying!

John Cochrane.

John,

as long as you change the poll to read: "carrying inadvertent imc safety instruments which many already have disabled according to current rules", and smart phones. ;-)

calling them cloud flying instruments is perhaps a little biased and really goes down the same old path which assumes everyone is a cheater at heart.

On Feb 17, 8:42*am, Sean Fidler wrote:
John,

as long as you change the poll to read: "carrying inadvertent imc safety instruments which many already have disabled according to current rules", and smart phones. *;-)

calling them cloud flying instruments is perhaps a little biased and really goes down the same old path which assumes everyone is a cheater at heart..

I'll use the language of the rules, with a pro/con and also poll
satisfaction with the disabling protocol.
John Cochrane

Fair enough.

At the end of the day this is all about having fun and being safe. If I am massively naive in the level by which people will push the rules in this matter, I apologize.

It is unfortunate that we cannot simply have all of these tools in the gliders and trust that our fellow pilots would fly legally, fairly and within the rules. But I do understand that this may not be the case and that their may not be a perfect solution here.

I enjoyed the discussion for the most part and look forward to seeing where this all goes. For the record, I was going to exchange my V7 for a butterfly, but have decided to keep the V7 which has no AH.

I think its better to let this play out before investing $3500 in a modern Vario. It would be too easy to be accused of foiling any safeguards in the Butterfly firmware. Im not sure that butterfly will be successful in removing all of the risk of cheating with their effort.

What of the LX Zues? What of all the others that come along, etc. Probably better to see where this rule goes. Probably better for the soaring instrument manufactures to rethink their product marketing, etc.

Sean
F2

On Feb 17, 10:07*am, Sean Fidler wrote:
Fair enough.

At the end of the day this is all about having fun and being safe. *If I am massively naive in the level by which people will push the rules in this matter, I apologize.

It is unfortunate that we cannot simply have all of these tools in the gliders and trust that our fellow pilots would fly legally, fairly and within the rules. *But I do understand that this may not be the case and that their may not be a perfect solution here.

I enjoyed the discussion for the most part and look forward to seeing where this all goes. *For the record, I was going to exchange my V7 for a butterfly, but have decided to keep the V7 which has no AH.

I think its better to let this play out before investing $3500 in a modern Vario. *It would be too easy to be accused of foiling any safeguards in the Butterfly firmware. *Im not sure that butterfly will be successful in removing all of the risk of cheating with their effort.

What of the LX Zues? *What of all the others that come along, etc. *Probably better to see where this rule goes. *Probably better for the soaring instrument manufactures to rethink their product marketing, etc.

Sean
F2

I have asked the Rules committee for 2 waviers for the 2012 SSA
soaring season. One is for cell phones and the other concerns PDA
software. I have been informed that the waviers will not be needed as
clarification will be shortly announced.
Simply standby and allow the thought process to continue as it has
been shown by the past that the results usually turn out good and
sometimes better than expected.

Thomas Kelley #711.

On Feb 17, 10:53*am, Tom Kelley wrote:
On Feb 17, 10:07*am, Sean Fidler wrote:

Fair enough.

At the end of the day this is all about having fun and being safe. *If I am massively naive in the level by which people will push the rules in this matter, I apologize.

It is unfortunate that we cannot simply have all of these tools in the gliders and trust that our fellow pilots would fly legally, fairly and within the rules. *But I do understand that this may not be the case and that their may not be a perfect solution here.

I enjoyed the discussion for the most part and look forward to seeing where this all goes. *For the record, I was going to exchange my V7 for a butterfly, but have decided to keep the V7 which has no AH.

I think its better to let this play out before investing $3500 in a modern Vario. *It would be too easy to be accused of foiling any safeguards in the Butterfly firmware. *Im not sure that butterfly will be successful in removing all of the risk of cheating with their effort.

What of the LX Zues? *What of all the others that come along, etc. *Probably better to see where this rule goes. *Probably better for the soaring instrument manufactures to rethink their product marketing, etc.

Sean
F2

I have asked the Rules committee for 2 waviers for the 2012 SSA
contest season. One is for cell phones and the other concerns PDA
software. I have been informed that the waviers will not be needed as
clarification will be shortly announced.
Simply standby and allow the thought process to continue as it has
been shown by the past that the results usually turn out good and
sometimes better than expected.

Thomas Kelley #711.

Sean,

As your a fairly new contest pilot, I would like to ad that the many
that have come before you, have normally used Sportmanship with our
rules. Even if we disagreed with them we found ways to deal with them.
Some of these ways might not be the easiest way at the time, but it
was not that difficult either. Sportmanship has been found by many as
the best way to race by. Sportmanship is not where you place on the
scoresheet, but how you, and it is you, play the game. We are
responible for our actions as one but the sport lives because of
sportsmanship shown by all. My earlier post on Sportsmanship was not
created by me, it is how it has been defined by those who have come
much earlier in time. What it does give is a well thought out
dirrection some may wish to consider. I choose that dirrection.

All of us have shown, we have flown up and down the score sheet
during our history of contests. Very few of us have maintained a true
Sportmanslike attiude during some contests.
Bobby Jones once saw his golf ball move. His caddy and others never
saw that and they told him he didn't have to take that penality. But
he did, as he said he saw it and the rules rquired him to. He lost
that major tourament by one stroke. Other great players in out history
have stepped forward in many sports and done the same. Thats what they
are remembered for, is how they played the game.
What I, and I speak as one, have never seen at all the contests I have
been at, are some of the things you have spoken of. It surprizes me
that the few contests you have been at you have seen so much to be
this concerned about. I accept your concern and hope we all can
continue to grow.
As was posted earlier, once you break the chain of sound judgement and
reasoning, unexpected results can happen. Those results can cause
unrepairable harm to inocent bystanders who were never though of.
We have spoken many times on tasks that have been called. If your not
comfortable with the task, let the CD know. You are not forced to come
to a contest, you choose to come. You are expected to read and
understand the rules, and hopefully, in my case, all the rules will be
understood before my retirement from contest soaring.
What I am leading to, is our sport lives because of us. Since we offer
no prize moneys it has remained a amateur sport. Bobby Jones asked why
he remained a amateur, he answered as this showed his undivided love
for the sport. I hope to remain an amateur in our sport of contest
soaring.

Thomas Kelley #711.