New Butterfly Vario

On Feb 17, 10:53*am, Tom Kelley wrote:
On Feb 17, 10:07*am, Sean Fidler wrote:

Fair enough.

At the end of the day this is all about having fun and being safe. *If I am massively naive in the level by which people will push the rules in this matter, I apologize.

It is unfortunate that we cannot simply have all of these tools in the gliders and trust that our fellow pilots would fly legally, fairly and within the rules. *But I do understand that this may not be the case and that their may not be a perfect solution here.

I enjoyed the discussion for the most part and look forward to seeing where this all goes. *For the record, I was going to exchange my V7 for a butterfly, but have decided to keep the V7 which has no AH.

I think its better to let this play out before investing $3500 in a modern Vario. *It would be too easy to be accused of foiling any safeguards in the Butterfly firmware. *Im not sure that butterfly will be successful in removing all of the risk of cheating with their effort.

What of the LX Zues? *What of all the others that come along, etc. *Probably better to see where this rule goes. *Probably better for the soaring instrument manufactures to rethink their product marketing, etc.

Sean
F2

I have asked the Rules committee for 2 waviers for the 2012 SSA
contest season. One is for cell phones and the other concerns PDA
software. I have been informed that the waviers will not be needed as
clarification will be shortly announced.
Simply standby and allow the thought process to continue as it has
been shown by the past that the results usually turn out good and
sometimes better than expected.

Thomas Kelley #711.

Sean,

As your a fairly new contest pilot, I would like to ad that the many
that have come before you, have normally used Sportmanship with our
rules. Even if we disagreed with them we found ways to deal with them.
Some of these ways might not be the easiest way at the time, but it
was not that difficult either. Sportmanship has been found by many as
the best way to race by. Sportmanship is not where you place on the
scoresheet, but how you, and it is you, play the game. We are
responible for our actions as one but the sport lives because of
sportsmanship shown by all. My earlier post on Sportsmanship was not
created by me, it is how it has been defined by those who have come
much earlier in time. What it does give is a well thought out
dirrection some may wish to consider. I choose that dirrection.

All of us have shown, we have flown up and down the score sheet
during our history of contests. Very few of us have maintained a true
Sportmanslike attiude during some contests.
Bobby Jones once saw his golf ball move. His caddy and others never
saw that and they told him he didn't have to take that penality. But
he did, as he said he saw it and the rules rquired him to. He lost
that major tourament by one stroke. Other great players in out history
have stepped forward in many sports and done the same. Thats what they
are remembered for, is how they played the game.
What I, and I speak as one, have never seen at all the contests I have
been at, are some of the things you have spoken of. It surprizes me
that the few contests you have been at you have seen so much to be
this concerned about. I accept your concern and hope we all can
continue to grow.
As was posted earlier, once you break the chain of sound judgement and
reasoning, unexpected results can happen. Those results can cause
unrepairable harm to inocent bystanders who were never though of.
We have spoken many times on tasks that have been called. If your not
comfortable with the task, let the CD know. You are not forced to come
to a contest, you choose to come. You are expected to read and
understand the rules, and hopefully, in my case, all the rules will be
understood before my retirement from contest soaring.
What I am leading to, is our sport lives because of us. Since we offer
no prize moneys it has remained a amateur sport. Bobby Jones asked why
he remained a amateur, he answered as this showed his undivided love
for the sport. I hope to remain an amateur in our sport of contest
soaring.

Thomas Kelley #711.

Tom,

I like the movie "The Legend of Bagger Vance" as much as anyone. That scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhnZzNWAwSM) where Bobby Jones gives himself a penalty is recreated there. It is a great moment in sport for sure.. I think many pilots in soaring have the same sportsman attitude and would do the same if they did something illegally such as broke cloud base with or without an AH.

Im not exactly sure what you are implying with the email in general to be honest. Let me say this.

I have no intention of cheating or being a bad sport. I dont intend to be a pain in the ass here. I simply wish to argue for a more righteous and simple path in general. I just find the gyro rule inconsistent, very difficult to enforce and strongly question that it is fundamentally safer to mercilessly ban any and all gyro's (smart phones, PNA's, etc) than to just go ahead and allow them.

I really dont feel that I have alot of contest knowledge. If that is what you are implying I agree with you 100%. I dont. I have a fair bit of CC soaring experience. I just really enjoy the sport of soaring, its people and the challenges it offers me at this point. It is a distinct passion. I also care about safety and understand the dangers of flying. I hope to be participating in the sport of soaring for some time. Trying to improve and learn.

As I pilot, an HONEST pilot, I dont like it that I cant have a gyro in my cockpit in contests. The idea of installing, uninstalling and screwing around with yet another problem is generally not attractive to me. I dont want this rule to be changed in order to cheat. I want this rule to be changed mainly out of the hope to be safe. I think it is possible that one day I may find myself in a cloud without any reference. Shame on me, but I think it will happen one day. Again, perhaps I am naive in my belief that this would help me fly straight and level out of IMC if I ever should need it...but gyro's certainly help me in other aircraft when in the clouds.

I personally am amazed that people (Euro's, etc) have learned to cloud fly effectively in a contest environment. I can honestly say that I would NEVER attempt it. Its illegal, crazy, endangers other pilots (power and glider) and would forever destroy the personal reputation of any pilot who is caught doing so. Its sad that that is apparently not true of all pilots.

I appreciate it that you took the time to write your thoughts.

Fly safe.

Best,

Sean

Somebody posed the question whether instrument flying skills are part
of the European glider pilot license.


I don’t know about other European countries, but in the UK, it is
not. When pilot qualifications (not at present a license necessarily)
stop being a BGA matter and become an EASA issue instead between April
this year and 2015, there will be a glider pilots licence, and
separately an instrument rating that can be added to it or not.


None of what follows is in any way a suggestion that other countries
copy us – I am simply stating facts as far as I know them. AFAIAC,
what you do in the USA in particular is entirely your affair.


Under the present UK arrangements, it is legal for gliders to go IMC
in class G airspace, which is where most of us fly. Nobody knows how
many people do it, nor what training they have had. Some are PPLs or
ATPLs with instrument ratings anyway. Some are not, and have learned
cloud flying by less formal means. My impression is that only a small
minority of glider pilots fly in cloud at all – but I know of no way
to establish that with certainty. My impression is gained partly from
talking to other pilots, but mostly from monitoring the cloud flying
radio frequency. I rarely hear anybody using it for cloud flying.


Competitions in the UK are either “rated” (and count for placings
towards the national competitions and national team membership etc.)
or “unrated”. I don’t know about the former, but cloud flying is often
if not always permitted in unrated competitions, of which I have
entered many. Collisions in cloud in competitions are virtually
unknown these days – we have had a radio procedure which seems
effective for over 30 years, and I think no incidents in that time.
There were a very few before that, even fewer or maybe none fatal in
the UK as far as I know.


We did have one fatal break-up in cloud nearly 30-40 years ago (not in
a competition). It was a very experienced pilot flying a modified
glider (extended wings) and the cause was unknown as far as I recall.


We had one cloud related collision, not competition, more recently. It
was about at cloud base. IIRC, neither pilot was using the cloud
flying protocol. There was another in very poor visibility. I won’t
comment further as my knowledge is second hand, from the accident
reports.


In the UK it is common practice to thermal up to cloud base, with no
requirement for instrument flying training let alone an IR. It is also
common to fly close to wave clouds. Occasionally people do enter cloud
inadvertently, but not usually sucked up in the way so graphically
described in Kempton Izuno's article. Before modern gliders, and
before much use of wave in the UK, clouds were more often used to gain
gold and diamond heights, typically in CBs – but most UK CBs are
nothing like as vigorous as those often found in the USA. I doubt if
anyone ventures deliberately into active CBs these days. (I have been
in one, or perhaps 2, not realising what they were developing into –
and I soon got out when I realised, and before the flashing and
banging started.)


I would be interested to know if it is possible to deduce from an IGC
logger file whether cloud was entered or not. If anyone wants to try
some analysis, I could provide some traces where I climbed from below
cloud up into them. I can’t say at what height, though i have a rough
idea from other clues and memory. My guess is that a competition
scrutineer would have difficulty in identifying the entry height. Even
harder would be to say when it got closer than 500 or 1000 feet from
cloud base, without other traces for comparison.


I hope you don’t mind a Brit providing the above information. As I
said, I am not trying to influence the USA scene, just provide some
facts relevant to questions posed by others.


Chris N

Very interesting post, Chris. Using a knowledge of physics, I would infer
that the climb rate would increase upon cloud entry due to the release of
the latent heat of vaporization of the water vapor as it condenses. Again,
this is only a guess.

As to how would the scorer know that someone entered a cloud? If someone's
flight was protested, I'd imagine the scorer could poll the field to
determine cloud base over the course and duration of the flight. Anything
significantly above the agreed cloud base would be cause for suspicion,
though not proof.

Still, it would be interesting to look at one of your cloud flying traces
and try to guess where the cloud base was during the flight.


"Chris Nicholas" wrote in message
...
Somebody posed the question whether instrument flying skills are part
of the European glider pilot license.


I don’t know about other European countries, but in the UK, it is
not. When pilot qualifications (not at present a license necessarily)
stop being a BGA matter and become an EASA issue instead between April
this year and 2015, there will be a glider pilots licence, and
separately an instrument rating that can be added to it or not.


None of what follows is in any way a suggestion that other countries
copy us – I am simply stating facts as far as I know them. AFAIAC,
what you do in the USA in particular is entirely your affair.


Under the present UK arrangements, it is legal for gliders to go IMC
in class G airspace, which is where most of us fly. Nobody knows how
many people do it, nor what training they have had. Some are PPLs or
ATPLs with instrument ratings anyway. Some are not, and have learned
cloud flying by less formal means. My impression is that only a small
minority of glider pilots fly in cloud at all – but I know of no way
to establish that with certainty. My impression is gained partly from
talking to other pilots, but mostly from monitoring the cloud flying
radio frequency. I rarely hear anybody using it for cloud flying.


Competitions in the UK are either “rated” (and count for placings
towards the national competitions and national team membership etc.)
or “unrated”. I don’t know about the former, but cloud flying is often
if not always permitted in unrated competitions, of which I have
entered many. Collisions in cloud in competitions are virtually
unknown these days – we have had a radio procedure which seems
effective for over 30 years, and I think no incidents in that time.
There were a very few before that, even fewer or maybe none fatal in
the UK as far as I know.


We did have one fatal break-up in cloud nearly 30-40 years ago (not in
a competition). It was a very experienced pilot flying a modified
glider (extended wings) and the cause was unknown as far as I recall.


We had one cloud related collision, not competition, more recently. It
was about at cloud base. IIRC, neither pilot was using the cloud
flying protocol. There was another in very poor visibility. I won’t
comment further as my knowledge is second hand, from the accident
reports.


In the UK it is common practice to thermal up to cloud base, with no
requirement for instrument flying training let alone an IR. It is also
common to fly close to wave clouds. Occasionally people do enter cloud
inadvertently, but not usually sucked up in the way so graphically
described in Kempton Izuno's article. Before modern gliders, and
before much use of wave in the UK, clouds were more often used to gain
gold and diamond heights, typically in CBs – but most UK CBs are
nothing like as vigorous as those often found in the USA. I doubt if
anyone ventures deliberately into active CBs these days. (I have been
in one, or perhaps 2, not realising what they were developing into –
and I soon got out when I realised, and before the flashing and
banging started.)


I would be interested to know if it is possible to deduce from an IGC
logger file whether cloud was entered or not. If anyone wants to try
some analysis, I could provide some traces where I climbed from below
cloud up into them. I can’t say at what height, though i have a rough
idea from other clues and memory. My guess is that a competition
scrutineer would have difficulty in identifying the entry height. Even
harder would be to say when it got closer than 500 or 1000 feet from
cloud base, without other traces for comparison.


I hope you don’t mind a Brit providing the above information. As I
said, I am not trying to influence the USA scene, just provide some
facts relevant to questions posed by others.


Chris N

Dan, see your emails. Regards - Chris

Chris, I'm going to try to analyze the height trace using the graphical
functions in Microsoft Excel. I'll look for a sudden increase in rate of
climb and make a guess from there. I might say in advance that I'm not
hopeful, but this should be a fun exercise.

Dan

BTW, I received your IGC files.


"Chris Nicholas" wrote in message
...
Dan, see your emails. Regards - Chris

Well, just going on a look-see, it looks like cloud base in one of the
traces was around 17,200 MSL with a top of climb of 24,740 MSL and, in the
other, around 16,000 MSL with a top of climb of 34,480.

So... How'd I do? I'm also thinking that your altitudes might be in meters
and if that's the case, then it might be...

Cloud Base: 1,720 meters, Top of climb: 2,447 meters for the first flight,
and, for the second,

Cloud Base: 1,600 meters, Top of climb: 3448 meters.

Since I can't paste a picture in here, I sent you the Excel file with the
traces included on Sheet 3. Please let us know if such a quick look came
close.

"Dan Marotta" wrote in message
...
Chris, I'm going to try to analyze the height trace using the graphical
functions in Microsoft Excel. I'll look for a sudden increase in rate of
climb and make a guess from there. I might say in advance that I'm not
hopeful, but this should be a fun exercise.

Dan

BTW, I received your IGC files.


"Chris Nicholas" wrote in message
...
Dan, see your emails. Regards - Chris

At 16:15 18 February 2012, Dan Marotta wrote:
Chris, I'm going to try to analyze the height trace using the graphical
functions in Microsoft Excel. I'll look for a sudden increase in rate of

climb and make a guess from there. I might say in advance that I'm not
hopeful, but this should be a fun exercise.

Dan

Dan, I do quite a lot of cloud flying mostly to keep current as cloud
flying is allowed in UK competition and sometimes it is necessary to fly in
cloud to stay up.

However....it rarely is faster. I usually find that my climb rate drops as
I enter cloud because the artificial horizon although good is not anything
like as good as the real thing. In my experience if cloud base allows it is
much faster to fly the energy below cloud.

BTW I also find cloud flying fun which is after all the reason I go
flying.

J1M

On Feb 17, 2:28*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:
Tom,

I like the movie "The Legend of Bagger Vance" as much as anyone. *That scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhnZzNWAwSM) where Bobby Jones gives himself a penalty is recreated there. *It is a great moment in sport for sure. *I think many pilots in soaring have the same sportsman attitude and would do the same if they did something illegally such as broke cloud base with or without an AH.




Sean, thanks for the link, thats neat. I read some book about Jones
maybe 45 to 50 years ago.



Im not exactly sure what you are implying with the email in general to be honest. *Let me say this.




Sean, to be sure, I am not implying anything. I speak as one, not for
others, as I have learned they wish to speak for themselves.



I have no intention of cheating or being a bad sport. *I dont intend to be a pain in the ass here. *I simply wish to argue for a more righteous and simple path in general. *I just find the gyro rule inconsistent, very difficult to enforce and strongly question that it is fundamentally safer to mercilessly ban any and all gyro's (smart phones, PNA's, etc) than to just go ahead and allow them.



Sean,
I am willing to go to any length to help you on the above. In order
for me to do this, please produce a letter from your local FAA GADO
office inwhich shows that they give approval of using any of these
devices for inadverently entering IMC conditions during an SSA
contest. Also, a letter from your insurer showing the same. After said
letters are recieved, I will do what I can to be of help. I understand
that for you, my level and my fellow entrants level of Sportsmanship
is something you choose not to follow and you seek a change so some of
the others will not infringe upon the rules. This is fine with me. I
will choose to believe differently. My fellow racers race without
infrigement on our rules and with the highest levels of sportsmanship
they can attain. You can rest assured that the top of our list, our US
Team members, both current and past National Champions, have always
displayed and given honor to our sport. I feel this towards ALL
entrants. Rest assured that at any past World Soaring Championship,
our flag has been carried with respect, flown with honor and proudly
displayed for all to see. No need to ever worry here.

I really dont feel that I have alot of contest knowledge. *If that is what you are implying I agree with you 100%. *I dont. *I have a fair bit of CC soaring experience. I just really enjoy the sport of soaring, its people and the challenges it offers me at this point. *It is a distinct passion. *I also care about safety and understand the dangers of flying. *I hope to be participating in the sport of soaring for some time. *Trying to improve and learn.

As I pilot, an HONEST pilot, I dont like it that I cant have a gyro in my cockpit in contests. *The idea of installing, uninstalling and screwing around with yet another problem is generally not attractive to me. *I dont want this rule to be changed in order to cheat. *I want this rule to be changed mainly out of the hope to be safe. *I think it is possible that one day I may find myself in a cloud without any reference. *Shame on me, but I think it will happen one day. *Again, perhaps I am naive in my belief that this would help me fly straight and level out of IMC if I ever should need it...but gyro's certainly help me in other aircraft when in the clouds.


Sean,
Thank you again for coming forward on the above issue. I, as you,
along with every person I know, will always choose safety first. We
have learned that this road is best to go down. Your thoughts about
someday, after reading stories of such happenings of cloud suction and
your not seeing any avoidable way of inadverently going IMC, as
wanting to carry a AH or gyro during SSA contests. I understand it as
a pain for some, yet others not. Again, let me be of help. Please,
please for those inocence bystanders, request a letter from your local
FAA GADO office giving you a preclearance to do any inadverent cloud
climb someday, somewhere. Please on the first practice day, ask the
CD for time to talk with the other entrants and inform them that you
might be doing an inadverent cloud climb, as you do not understand how
to avoid possible IMC conditions. As you state, your honest, as I
believe you are, but this thought is in your mind, so let me be of
help to you. Please go and get these letters, as its a good starting
solution to this problem.

I personally am amazed that people (Euro's, etc) have learned to
cloud fly effectively in a contest environment. *I can honestly say
that I would NEVER attempt it. *Its illegal, crazy, endangers other
pilots (power and glider) and would forever destroy the personal
reputation of any pilot who is caught doing so. *Its sad that that is
apparently not true of all pilots.


Sean, since you now state ""you would never attempt it"" , ""its
crazy"" it ""endangers other pilot"" then you have learned somehow,
someway, to aviod inadverently going IMC and mantaining VFR conditions
during SSA contests. Also, as the FAR's require, I may ad. I am so
happy for me and you. Dang golly.

SEAN, no need to now go do all that work of getting letters and stuff.
Wow, praise GOD, wait till Hank reads this, another miracle has
happened on RAS. Sean has learned to avoid going into cloud by maybe
using safe and sound judgement, understanding the operation capablitiy
of his glider, heck, whatever, its just good, good, good.
Hope is good, miracles do happen. Thank you, thank you.

I appreciate it that you took the time to write your thoughts.

Fly safe.

Best,

Sean

Sean,

I have met you and know your father. I do think the best of your
family. With over 27,000 hrs., over 200 passing their licensing test,
countless solo's, to many dang years of contest flying, bothering to
many CD's,(love bugging John Good, fun, fun, fun), Kicking KS's ass
along with the rest.

Remember this.

I will go to any length to be of service to you.

Thermal tight, Soar high, Fly safe.


Thomas Kelley #711.

Tom,

Why do any gliders have gyro's at all?

Sean