Analyzing US Competition Flights

On Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:32:32 AM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:

Well, good luck with that.

Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your preferences, there's
another glider competition system with no equipment limitations - OLC
- and pilots seem to like it.

I think a bigger problem for rule makers is convincing OLC pilots to
try sanctioned contests. If they have to remove their beloved gadgets
to participate, that makes it harder.

That's not to say sanctioned contest rules shouldn't restrict
technology - they should, but wisely and only to maintain a level
playing field.

Bill, you are mixing apples and oranges. OLC, while a contest, is not (and never has been, or ever will be) a RACE.

A contest can have very simple rules ("go as far as you can in a glider"). But if I show up in a Concordia, and you show up in a 1-26, we are not racing. A race, to be fair and interesting, has to have tight rules.

There is plenty of room for both in our sport, as the two activities are not mutually exclusive.

I do fail to see the problem with restrictive rules in racing. If you want to race, read and comply with the rules, then have fun. It's as simple as that. Really.

Kirk
66

On Mar 13, 11:01*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:32:32 AM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:
Well, good luck with that.

Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your preferences, there's
another glider competition system with no equipment limitations - OLC
- and pilots seem to like it.

I think a bigger problem for rule makers is convincing OLC pilots to
try sanctioned contests. *If they have to remove their beloved gadgets
to participate, that makes it harder.

That's not to say sanctioned contest rules shouldn't restrict
technology - they should, but wisely and only to maintain a level
playing field.

Bill, you are mixing apples and oranges. *OLC, while a contest, is not (and never has been, or ever will be) a RACE.

A contest can have very simple rules ("go as far as you can in a glider").. But if I show up in a Concordia, and you show up in a 1-26, we are not racing. A race, to be fair and interesting, has to have tight rules.

There is plenty of room for both in our sport, as the two activities are not mutually exclusive.

I do fail to see the problem with restrictive rules in racing. If you want to race, read and comply with the rules, then have fun. *It's as simple as that. Really.

Kirk
66

I have a deep respect for the RC and the pilots who fly under their
rules. I will always remain a fan of sanctioned contests. I've made
my point more strongly than I intended so I exit this thread.

On Mar 13, 10:01*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:32:32 AM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:
Well, good luck with that.

Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your preferences, there's
another glider competition system with no equipment limitations - OLC
- and pilots seem to like it.

I think a bigger problem for rule makers is convincing OLC pilots to
try sanctioned contests. *If they have to remove their beloved gadgets
to participate, that makes it harder.

That's not to say sanctioned contest rules shouldn't restrict
technology - they should, but wisely and only to maintain a level
playing field.

Bill, you are mixing apples and oranges. *OLC, while a contest, is not (and never has been, or ever will be) a RACE.

A contest can have very simple rules ("go as far as you can in a glider").. But if I show up in a Concordia, and you show up in a 1-26, we are not racing. A race, to be fair and interesting, has to have tight rules.

There is plenty of room for both in our sport, as the two activities are not mutually exclusive.

I do fail to see the problem with restrictive rules in racing. If you want to race, read and comply with the rules, then have fun. *It's as simple as that. Really.

Kirk
66

Kirk,

I would like to suggest that while OLC may not be a "sanctioned" race,
it is still a race: it is a race against the weather, the conditions,
the amount of daylight and most importantly, it is a race against your
fellow pilots flying together on that day. While true, OLC pilots will
never reach the same first name only notoriety that "racing" pilots
enjoy, to say we don't race isn't really accurate.

Regards,
Brad

Kirk,

I would like to suggest that while OLC may not be a "sanctioned" race,
it is still a race: it is a race against the weather, the conditions,
the amount of daylight and most importantly, it is a race against your
fellow pilots flying together on that day. While true, OLC pilots will
never reach the same first name only notoriety that "racing" pilots
enjoy, to say we don't race isn't really accurate.

Regards,
Brad

Sorry, Brad, I totally disagree. A "race" implies competition between people on the same task, whatever that task is. OLC doesn't have a "task"!

Definition of "Race":

Noun: A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc., to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

Verb: Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective.

OLC fits neither of these.

Why the need to mix the two? OLC is a valid form of competition, and is a lot of fun - it just isn't a race where individuals compete against each other on the same field of play. A race against fellow pilots? YGBSM! I'm in Illinois scratching around in 1 knot up to 2000', and you are running around in NM at 17999' under a cloud street? Yeah right. You get a better OLC score, that's great! But we didn't race!

I want my racing to have rules. If you don't like rules - then you probably won't like racing. I like to see how I do against other pilots on solving a problem we are all exposed to at the same time - not comparing the soaring weather where I live to the soaring weather where someone else lives.

Kirk
66

On Mar 13, 5:13*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
Kirk,

I would like to suggest that while OLC may not be a "sanctioned" race,
it is still a race: it is a race against the weather, the conditions,
the amount of daylight and most importantly, it is a race against your
fellow pilots flying together on that day. While true, OLC pilots will
never reach the same first name only notoriety that "racing" pilots
enjoy, to say we don't race isn't really accurate.

Regards,
Brad

Sorry, Brad, I totally disagree. *A "race" implies competition between people on the same task, whatever that task is. OLC doesn't have a "task"!

Definition of "Race":

Noun: A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc., to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

Verb: Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective.

OLC fits neither of these.

Why the need to mix the two? *OLC is a valid form of competition, and is a lot of fun - it just isn't a race where individuals compete against each other on the same field of play. *A race against fellow pilots? YGBSM! I'm in Illinois scratching around in 1 knot up to 2000', and you are running around in NM at 17999' under a cloud street? *Yeah right. *You get a better OLC score, that's great! But we didn't race!

I want my racing to have rules. *If you don't like rules - then you probably won't like racing. I like to see how I do against other pilots on solving a problem we are all exposed to at the same time - not comparing the soaring weather where I live to the soaring weather where someone else lives..

Kirk
66

You are not getting it Kirk. Our kinder and gentler PC society won't
have their precious children divided into winners and losers. Look at
the bedrooms of all those Generation XYZ babies with their
certificates of participation proudly displayed. Rules? Who needs
rules if we just all strive to get along and let those mimosas do what
it takes not to have another temper tantrum. Kirk, you and I are just
too damned old to understand that.
Herb, J7

On Mar 13, 3:56*pm, Herbert kilian wrote:
On Mar 13, 5:13*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:









Kirk,

I would like to suggest that while OLC may not be a "sanctioned" race,
it is still a race: it is a race against the weather, the conditions,
the amount of daylight and most importantly, it is a race against your
fellow pilots flying together on that day. While true, OLC pilots will
never reach the same first name only notoriety that "racing" pilots
enjoy, to say we don't race isn't really accurate.

Regards,
Brad

Sorry, Brad, I totally disagree. *A "race" implies competition between people on the same task, whatever that task is. OLC doesn't have a "task"!

Definition of "Race":

Noun: A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc., to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

Verb: Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective.

OLC fits neither of these.

Why the need to mix the two? *OLC is a valid form of competition, and is a lot of fun - it just isn't a race where individuals compete against each other on the same field of play. *A race against fellow pilots? YGBSM! I'm in Illinois scratching around in 1 knot up to 2000', and you are running around in NM at 17999' under a cloud street? *Yeah right. *You get a better OLC score, that's great! But we didn't race!

I want my racing to have rules. *If you don't like rules - then you probably won't like racing. I like to see how I do against other pilots on solving a problem we are all exposed to at the same time - not comparing the soaring weather where I live to the soaring weather where someone else lives.

Kirk
66

You are not getting it Kirk. *Our kinder and gentler PC society won't
have their precious children divided into winners and losers. *Look at
the bedrooms of all those Generation XYZ babies with their
certificates of participation proudly displayed. *Rules? Who needs
rules if we just all strive to get along and let those mimosas do what
it takes not to have another temper tantrum. *Kirk, you and I are just
too damned old to understand that.
Herb, J7

Hey Herb, I'm old enough to have grandkids and I sure as hell am not a
PC hack, so understand that racing is for those who wanna race, and
OLC is for those who wanna race.
You guys have hijacked the term "race" like the gays have hijacked the
word "gay".

Herb come on up to my neck of the woods and I'll kick your ass where I
fly.

Brad
(almost forgot to add respectfully)

Speaking of hijacking, you guys have hijacked this thread. Take it
outside.

For the record, though, while the OLC is a justifiably popular form of
competition, it's not racing in the classic head-to-head fashion.
Technically, sanctioned contests are not all head-to-head racing,
either, as whenever an area-type task is called. But at least we all
launch from the same location and mostly return there having flown in
the same geographical envelope and overall weather system. Such is not
the case with the OLC, as innovative and challenging as it is.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

On Mar 13, 7:32*pm, Chip Bearden wrote:
Speaking of hijacking, you guys have hijacked this thread. Take it
outside.

For the record, though, while the OLC is a justifiably popular form of
competition, it's not racing in the classic head-to-head fashion.
Technically, sanctioned contests are not all head-to-head racing,
either, as whenever an area-type task is called. But at least we all
launch from the same location and mostly return there having flown in
the same geographical envelope and overall weather system. Such is not
the case with the OLC, as innovative and challenging as it is.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

Chip,

If I may come back inside for a moment. I think you just hit the nail
on the head with this post. I do not claim that OLC is a competition/
race between everyone posting flights on a particular day. I am
suggesting that the OLC traces posted by the group of guys I fly with,
that take off, and hopefully land back at the same place, are "racing"
and in "competition" with each other.

Kirk is right; although I do not fly out of NM, where I do fly is in
the mountains and yes we do get high and yes we do go far, and no, to
claim that I beat someone flying in conditions lacking such veracity
would not be accurate. In the context of a group of guys flying from a
common location, I posit that racing can take place without it being
sanctioned or requiring entry fees and 2 weeks of vacation in order to
participate.

And Herb.............come out west, fly the peaks with us.

Brad

On Tuesday, March 13, 2012 7:09:47 PM UTC-5, Brad wrote:

Definition of "Race":

Noun: A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc., to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

Verb: Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective.


Hey Herb, I'm old enough to have grandkids and I sure as hell am not a
PC hack, so understand that racing is for those who wanna race, and
OLC is for those who wanna race.
You guys have hijacked the term "race" like the gays have hijacked the
word "gay".

Brad
(almost forgot to add respectfully)

Not an English Major, obviously. Please read and attempt to comprehend the definition of a race, posted above for your edification.

It's actually you OLC guys who have hijacked the term "race"!

And now, back to your regular programming...

Kirk
66

Although I enjoy OLC more than traditional racing, I have to agree with Kirk on this one. I would also posit that the only "real" race is an assigned task where all competitors fly the same course round defined turnpoints. Once you permit pilot-assigned turnpoints (AAT and MAT), the race has essentially become OLC light.

As an ex sailboat racer, I believe that the best races also require all competitors to start simultaneously - Grand Prix style.

Mike