Analyzing US Competition Flights

On Mar 13, 5:13*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
Kirk,

I would like to suggest that while OLC may not be a "sanctioned" race,
it is still a race: it is a race against the weather, the conditions,
the amount of daylight and most importantly, it is a race against your
fellow pilots flying together on that day. While true, OLC pilots will
never reach the same first name only notoriety that "racing" pilots
enjoy, to say we don't race isn't really accurate.

Regards,
Brad

Sorry, Brad, I totally disagree. *A "race" implies competition between people on the same task, whatever that task is. OLC doesn't have a "task"!

Definition of "Race":

Noun: A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc., to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

Verb: Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective.

OLC fits neither of these.

Why the need to mix the two? *OLC is a valid form of competition, and is a lot of fun - it just isn't a race where individuals compete against each other on the same field of play. *A race against fellow pilots? YGBSM! I'm in Illinois scratching around in 1 knot up to 2000', and you are running around in NM at 17999' under a cloud street? *Yeah right. *You get a better OLC score, that's great! But we didn't race!

I want my racing to have rules. *If you don't like rules - then you probably won't like racing. I like to see how I do against other pilots on solving a problem we are all exposed to at the same time - not comparing the soaring weather where I live to the soaring weather where someone else lives..

Kirk
66

You are not getting it Kirk. Our kinder and gentler PC society won't
have their precious children divided into winners and losers. Look at
the bedrooms of all those Generation XYZ babies with their
certificates of participation proudly displayed. Rules? Who needs
rules if we just all strive to get along and let those mimosas do what
it takes not to have another temper tantrum. Kirk, you and I are just
too damned old to understand that.
Herb, J7

On Mar 13, 3:56*pm, Herbert kilian wrote:
On Mar 13, 5:13*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:









Kirk,

I would like to suggest that while OLC may not be a "sanctioned" race,
it is still a race: it is a race against the weather, the conditions,
the amount of daylight and most importantly, it is a race against your
fellow pilots flying together on that day. While true, OLC pilots will
never reach the same first name only notoriety that "racing" pilots
enjoy, to say we don't race isn't really accurate.

Regards,
Brad

Sorry, Brad, I totally disagree. *A "race" implies competition between people on the same task, whatever that task is. OLC doesn't have a "task"!

Definition of "Race":

Noun: A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc., to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

Verb: Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective.

OLC fits neither of these.

Why the need to mix the two? *OLC is a valid form of competition, and is a lot of fun - it just isn't a race where individuals compete against each other on the same field of play. *A race against fellow pilots? YGBSM! I'm in Illinois scratching around in 1 knot up to 2000', and you are running around in NM at 17999' under a cloud street? *Yeah right. *You get a better OLC score, that's great! But we didn't race!

I want my racing to have rules. *If you don't like rules - then you probably won't like racing. I like to see how I do against other pilots on solving a problem we are all exposed to at the same time - not comparing the soaring weather where I live to the soaring weather where someone else lives.

Kirk
66

You are not getting it Kirk. *Our kinder and gentler PC society won't
have their precious children divided into winners and losers. *Look at
the bedrooms of all those Generation XYZ babies with their
certificates of participation proudly displayed. *Rules? Who needs
rules if we just all strive to get along and let those mimosas do what
it takes not to have another temper tantrum. *Kirk, you and I are just
too damned old to understand that.
Herb, J7

Hey Herb, I'm old enough to have grandkids and I sure as hell am not a
PC hack, so understand that racing is for those who wanna race, and
OLC is for those who wanna race.
You guys have hijacked the term "race" like the gays have hijacked the
word "gay".

Herb come on up to my neck of the woods and I'll kick your ass where I
fly.

Brad
(almost forgot to add respectfully)

Speaking of hijacking, you guys have hijacked this thread. Take it
outside.

For the record, though, while the OLC is a justifiably popular form of
competition, it's not racing in the classic head-to-head fashion.
Technically, sanctioned contests are not all head-to-head racing,
either, as whenever an area-type task is called. But at least we all
launch from the same location and mostly return there having flown in
the same geographical envelope and overall weather system. Such is not
the case with the OLC, as innovative and challenging as it is.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

On Mar 13, 7:32*pm, Chip Bearden wrote:
Speaking of hijacking, you guys have hijacked this thread. Take it
outside.

For the record, though, while the OLC is a justifiably popular form of
competition, it's not racing in the classic head-to-head fashion.
Technically, sanctioned contests are not all head-to-head racing,
either, as whenever an area-type task is called. But at least we all
launch from the same location and mostly return there having flown in
the same geographical envelope and overall weather system. Such is not
the case with the OLC, as innovative and challenging as it is.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

Chip,

If I may come back inside for a moment. I think you just hit the nail
on the head with this post. I do not claim that OLC is a competition/
race between everyone posting flights on a particular day. I am
suggesting that the OLC traces posted by the group of guys I fly with,
that take off, and hopefully land back at the same place, are "racing"
and in "competition" with each other.

Kirk is right; although I do not fly out of NM, where I do fly is in
the mountains and yes we do get high and yes we do go far, and no, to
claim that I beat someone flying in conditions lacking such veracity
would not be accurate. In the context of a group of guys flying from a
common location, I posit that racing can take place without it being
sanctioned or requiring entry fees and 2 weeks of vacation in order to
participate.

And Herb.............come out west, fly the peaks with us.

Brad

On Mar 13, 11:19*pm, Brad wrote:
If I may come back inside for a moment. I think you just hit the nail
on the head with this post. I do not claim that OLC is a competition/
race between everyone posting flights on a particular day. I am
suggesting that the OLC traces posted by the group of guys I fly with,
that take off, and hopefully land back at the same place, are "racing"
and in "competition" with each other.
SNIP
In the context of a group of guys flying from a
common location, I posit that racing can take place without it being
sanctioned or requiring entry fees and 2 weeks of vacation in order to
participate.

Let's put this to bed so we can argue about smart phones.

Think of "classic" assigned-task racing as being at one end of the
competition continuum (all pilots flying the same task at the same
time). And think of the OLC at the other end (pilots flying wherever
they want at different times). The various forms of area tasks called
at today's sanctioned contests are close to but not precisely at the
same point as the assigned task because, while all pilots launch from
the same location and fly in the same task area, they do not
necessarily fly the same course. But that's still pretty close to
classic head-to-head racing.

I don't think anyone would disagree that a bunch of guys launching
from a common airport the same day who agree to fly the same informal
task (sometimes called ahead of time, more often after everyone
launches, and sometimes on a turnpoint-by-turnpoint basis by whomever
is out ahead) are racing.

Another variation, edging still further from the assigned task
endpoint, is the concept of the Governor's Cup season-long series here
in the NJ-PA-NY-DE area that was written up a while ago and promoted
by Erik Mann. Pilots launching from different points (mostly
gliderports) fly the same course (set around those points); you can
enter the course from any point and fly in either direction. A pilot's
best three days count towards the overall results. They don't all fly
from the same launch point nor do they all fly the same days or in the
same weather. But they do fly the same course...sort of: there are
optional turnpoints for good days and a south course and north course
to accommodate a couple of operations up in NY state. I think most, if
not all, of the competition pilots (myself included) who compete for
the Cup consider it to be a form of racing, although pilots who can
take off during the week to grab the best days tend to tilt things
slightly more towards the OLC model. On a good weekend day, it
resembles the "let's all fly a task today" pickup contest model except
we can all fly from our usual airports without having to trailer in.

All points on this continuum are valid forms of competition. The
closer you get to the classic assigned task model, however, the easier
it is to refer to it as head-to-head racing, where I (like Kirk and
many others) like to measure myself against other pilots over the same
ground under the same conditions. It doesn't mean one point on this
continuum is better than another, but they are all different.

You could also compare other attributes on this same continuum: % of
the soaring day used is much higher for the OLC, for example, and
probably also the % of completion (not having to land out). Average
speed is higher for the racing end of the continuum, all things being
equal. I'm not going to touch "fun factor" here because that's in the
eye of the beholder.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

On Tuesday, March 13, 2012 7:09:47 PM UTC-5, Brad wrote:

Definition of "Race":

Noun: A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc., to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

Verb: Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective.


Hey Herb, I'm old enough to have grandkids and I sure as hell am not a
PC hack, so understand that racing is for those who wanna race, and
OLC is for those who wanna race.
You guys have hijacked the term "race" like the gays have hijacked the
word "gay".

Brad
(almost forgot to add respectfully)

Not an English Major, obviously. Please read and attempt to comprehend the definition of a race, posted above for your edification.

It's actually you OLC guys who have hijacked the term "race"!

And now, back to your regular programming...

Kirk
66

Although I enjoy OLC more than traditional racing, I have to agree with Kirk on this one. I would also posit that the only "real" race is an assigned task where all competitors fly the same course round defined turnpoints. Once you permit pilot-assigned turnpoints (AAT and MAT), the race has essentially become OLC light.

As an ex sailboat racer, I believe that the best races also require all competitors to start simultaneously - Grand Prix style.

Mike

On Mar 14, 8:39*am, Mike the Strike wrote:
*Once you permit pilot-assigned turnpoints (AAT and MAT), the race has essentially become OLC light.


Mike - While I don't disagree with your attitude, I cringe at your
characterization of AAT tasks... In an AAT (or MAT), the pilots are
still launching within an hour of each other and flying in (generally)
the same airmass. By contrast, here's a typical OLC "task" [with my
tongue firmly planted in my cheek]:

OLC 2012, Day 74
-----
GRID TIME: *after sunrise*
LAUNCH TIME: *after grid*
START: *near an airfield of some sort, and don't take too long of a
tow*
TP1: 00:00.000N, 000:00.000W, Radius 3964 miles
TP2: 00:00.000N, 000:00.000W, Radius 3964 miles
TP3: 00:00.000N, 000:00.000W, Radius 3964 miles
TP4: 00:00.000N, 000:00.000W, Radius 3964 miles
TP5: 00:00.000N, 000:00.000W, Radius 3964 miles
FINISH: 00:00.000N, 000:00.000W, Radius 3964 miles
-----

:-)

--Noel
(who really likes the OLC, but doesn't consider a 500km flight in
Germany and a 500km flight in the US comparable achievements - even on
the same day)

At 13:09 14 March 2012, kirk.stant wrote:


Noun: A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc.,
to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

Verb: Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at
covering a set course or achieving an objective.



Not an English Major, obviously. Please read and attempt to comprehend
the
definition of a race, posted above for your edification.

It's actually you OLC guys who have hijacked the term "race"!

And now, back to your regular programming...

Kirk
66



This is just a rehash of the same argument we had when the PST or POST was
used in racing. It really comes down to what you are measuring in a "Race".
In the AST we are measuring speed over distance and thermalling ability. In
a PST we add to that course choices, weather, and rules interpretation. I
had this argument with a National rated pilot and what we came up with is
that the same people won regardless of the task type. But some just don't
like racing in that way. Admittedly the easiest, while not being
necessarily the fairest would be to race a one class glider and do a AST,
no thinking just fly fast!

CH

On 3/14/2012 12:34 PM, Cliff Hilty wrote:
Admittedly the easiest, while not being
necessarily the fairest would be to race a one class glider and do a AST,
no thinking just fly fast!

I have to disagree with this. AST was all we had when I started flying,
and the people that beat me did a TON of thinking (or at least half a
ton - full ton generally not needed to beat me). A big feature of the
AST is everyone HAD to round the same turnpoints (and it was a point,
not an area). Also, back then, we got to choose our own launch time!

On a very good day, the race tended to be a "technical" one, with
thermal selection, effective thermalling , and lift area choices being
important. That was a great learning experience, being able to fly with
people like Moffat, Mozer, Striedieck, and many more, and try to emulate
their technical abilities.

On a difficult day, the best pilots knew when to shift gears, when to
backtrack, when to just hang out, when to stick with the gaggle, until
it was possible to get to and around the turnpoint. It was on those days
I learned the most about using soaring weather.

As we shifted to PST and later "open" tasks, it became harder to compare
the technical, weather, and strategic skills, and I gradually lost
interest as flying a contest increasingly became the same as
"opportunistic" (aka "recreational") soaring. Why go to the cost and
effort of a contest, when the flying was the same as what I did all the
time anyway?

One reason, of course, is it's fun to gather together in group for some
serious flying, even if the "race" aspect of it is much reduced, and
that's why I kept at for many years. Eventually, I decided contest
flying was interfering with my soaring, and I gave it up.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)