Analyzing US Competition Flights

On Tuesday, March 13, 2012 7:09:47 PM UTC-5, Brad wrote:

Definition of "Race":

Noun: A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc., to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

Verb: Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective.


Hey Herb, I'm old enough to have grandkids and I sure as hell am not a
PC hack, so understand that racing is for those who wanna race, and
OLC is for those who wanna race.
You guys have hijacked the term "race" like the gays have hijacked the
word "gay".

Brad
(almost forgot to add respectfully)

Not an English Major, obviously. Please read and attempt to comprehend the definition of a race, posted above for your edification.

It's actually you OLC guys who have hijacked the term "race"!

And now, back to your regular programming...

Kirk
66

Although I enjoy OLC more than traditional racing, I have to agree with Kirk on this one. I would also posit that the only "real" race is an assigned task where all competitors fly the same course round defined turnpoints. Once you permit pilot-assigned turnpoints (AAT and MAT), the race has essentially become OLC light.

As an ex sailboat racer, I believe that the best races also require all competitors to start simultaneously - Grand Prix style.

Mike

On Mar 14, 8:39*am, Mike the Strike wrote:
*Once you permit pilot-assigned turnpoints (AAT and MAT), the race has essentially become OLC light.


Mike - While I don't disagree with your attitude, I cringe at your
characterization of AAT tasks... In an AAT (or MAT), the pilots are
still launching within an hour of each other and flying in (generally)
the same airmass. By contrast, here's a typical OLC "task" [with my
tongue firmly planted in my cheek]:

OLC 2012, Day 74
-----
GRID TIME: *after sunrise*
LAUNCH TIME: *after grid*
START: *near an airfield of some sort, and don't take too long of a
tow*
TP1: 00:00.000N, 000:00.000W, Radius 3964 miles
TP2: 00:00.000N, 000:00.000W, Radius 3964 miles
TP3: 00:00.000N, 000:00.000W, Radius 3964 miles
TP4: 00:00.000N, 000:00.000W, Radius 3964 miles
TP5: 00:00.000N, 000:00.000W, Radius 3964 miles
FINISH: 00:00.000N, 000:00.000W, Radius 3964 miles
-----

:-)

--Noel
(who really likes the OLC, but doesn't consider a 500km flight in
Germany and a 500km flight in the US comparable achievements - even on
the same day)

At 13:09 14 March 2012, kirk.stant wrote:


Noun: A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc.,
to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

Verb: Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at
covering a set course or achieving an objective.



Not an English Major, obviously. Please read and attempt to comprehend
the
definition of a race, posted above for your edification.

It's actually you OLC guys who have hijacked the term "race"!

And now, back to your regular programming...

Kirk
66



This is just a rehash of the same argument we had when the PST or POST was
used in racing. It really comes down to what you are measuring in a "Race".
In the AST we are measuring speed over distance and thermalling ability. In
a PST we add to that course choices, weather, and rules interpretation. I
had this argument with a National rated pilot and what we came up with is
that the same people won regardless of the task type. But some just don't
like racing in that way. Admittedly the easiest, while not being
necessarily the fairest would be to race a one class glider and do a AST,
no thinking just fly fast!

CH

On 3/14/2012 12:34 PM, Cliff Hilty wrote:
Admittedly the easiest, while not being
necessarily the fairest would be to race a one class glider and do a AST,
no thinking just fly fast!

I have to disagree with this. AST was all we had when I started flying,
and the people that beat me did a TON of thinking (or at least half a
ton - full ton generally not needed to beat me). A big feature of the
AST is everyone HAD to round the same turnpoints (and it was a point,
not an area). Also, back then, we got to choose our own launch time!

On a very good day, the race tended to be a "technical" one, with
thermal selection, effective thermalling , and lift area choices being
important. That was a great learning experience, being able to fly with
people like Moffat, Mozer, Striedieck, and many more, and try to emulate
their technical abilities.

On a difficult day, the best pilots knew when to shift gears, when to
backtrack, when to just hang out, when to stick with the gaggle, until
it was possible to get to and around the turnpoint. It was on those days
I learned the most about using soaring weather.

As we shifted to PST and later "open" tasks, it became harder to compare
the technical, weather, and strategic skills, and I gradually lost
interest as flying a contest increasingly became the same as
"opportunistic" (aka "recreational") soaring. Why go to the cost and
effort of a contest, when the flying was the same as what I did all the
time anyway?

One reason, of course, is it's fun to gather together in group for some
serious flying, even if the "race" aspect of it is much reduced, and
that's why I kept at for many years. Eventually, I decided contest
flying was interfering with my soaring, and I gave it up.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

Eric -

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I *LIKE* that I am not limited
to a 1 mi AT circle. I don't like the idea that some guy can (semi-
randomly) go into that turnpoint and catch the only thermal of the day
that drifts through that small volume if airspace. With a bigger
cylinder, the law of averages gives me better odds of finding a
thermal that's as good as a thermal some other contestant may find in
the same area.

Of course, I've never experienced the "good old days" of racing with
picking my own start times. I've also never had a race without a
1000' finish height, or an open/pure-distance day with overnight
retrieves, or no radios or cell-phones when I land out. ;-P

Maybe I'm just a snot-nosed punk who missed the glory days of
sailplane racing (I _am_ jealous of those pics from the 70's showing
the huge grids), but I find the current system is still compelling and
VERY different from casual/OLC flying. I still have a course, I still
have time limits, and I am still trying to outsmart the weather, the
sun, and my fellow pilots.

--Noel


On Mar 14, 8:13*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:

As we shifted to PST and later "open" tasks, it became harder to compare
the technical, weather, and strategic skills, and I gradually lost
interest as flying a contest increasingly became the same as
"opportunistic" (aka "recreational") soaring. Why go to the cost and
effort of a contest, when the flying was the same as what I did all the
time anyway?

On 3/15/2012 2:38 PM, noel.wade wrote:
Eric -

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I*LIKE* that I am not limited
to a 1 mi AT circle. I don't like the idea that some guy can (semi-
randomly) go into that turnpoint and catch the only thermal of the day
that drifts through that small volume if airspace. With a bigger
cylinder, the law of averages gives me better odds of finding a
thermal that's as good as a thermal some other contestant may find in
the same area.

Of course, I've never experienced the "good old days" of racing with
picking my own start times. I've also never had a race without a
1000' finish height, or an open/pure-distance day with overnight
retrieves, or no radios or cell-phones when I land out.;-P

Maybe I'm just a snot-nosed punk who missed the glory days of
sailplane racing (I_am_ jealous of those pics from the 70's showing
the huge grids), but I find the current system is still compelling and
VERY different from casual/OLC flying. I still have a course, I still
have time limits, and I am still trying to outsmart the weather, the
sun, and my fellow pilots.

Rules attract a constituency that likes them, so you've self-selected
yourself into the current situation, as I have self-selected myself out
of it!

But to the turnpoint size ... We were not limited to a 1 mile circle,
instead, we had to fly _over_ the turnpoint (usually a specific end of a
runway) and take a picture of the photo target (usually the other end of
the runway) with a camera that was mounted on the canopy rail.

The problem that eventually led to changes wasn't the luck of finding a
better situated thermal a mile or two away, but the possibility a
thunderstorm or cirrus would shut off the thermals for miles in all
directions near the turnpoint. When this happened, there would a lot of
landouts, as most (or no) pilots could get past that turnpoint.

The thermal "luck" you mention really wasn't much of a problem, and the
longer tasks we flew (compared to the last decade or more) averaged out
a lot of the luck inherent in a contest, and made sure the best rose to
the top of the list.

So, yes: different rules, different people, different times.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:38:04 PM UTC-5, noel.wade wrote:
Eric -

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I *LIKE* that I am not limited
to a 1 mi AT circle. I don't like the idea that some guy can (semi-
randomly) go into that turnpoint and catch the only thermal of the day
that drifts through that small volume if airspace. With a bigger
cylinder, the law of averages gives me better odds of finding a
thermal that's as good as a thermal some other contestant may find in
the same area.

Interesting. I see the same situation in EXACTLY the opposite way: With large area tasks, a guy can semi-randomly catch the only thermal of the day and coast to an easy win; with small turnpoints (and a 1 mile circle is pretty small at 90 knots!) everyone has to solve pretty much the same problems. I don't want the law of averages involved, I want pilot skills involved. Area tasks were developed (and rightly so) to allow tasks in iffy weather - not as a replacement for assigned tasks on good, predictable days. I think many CDs use area tasks because they are a lot easier to call (BTDT). They are a lot better than the detestable one-turnpoint 3 hour MAT! And they are useful when racing handicapped classes. Called intelligently (which is not a 2.5 hour task with two 30mile radius turnpoints 60 miles apart!) they are a lot of fun.

Of course, I've never experienced the "good old days" of racing with
picking my own start times. I've also never had a race without a
1000' finish height, or an open/pure-distance day with overnight
retrieves, or no radios or cell-phones when I land out. ;-P

Ahh, the good old days of formation 50' line finishes over the hangars - at redline, dumping your ballast on the barbecue, pulling up into the line of gliders on downwind (at 500' or so...) to take your turn to land. Now that was FUN! When you got out of your ship you were pumped!

(please, no safety retorts, you guys have won that fight...)

Cheers,

Kirk
66