How did the Brits do it?

Subject: How did the Brits do it?
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 3/10/04 6:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
I think back to the war and the RAF heavies on their night missions.
Missions
flown in the winter usually were in atrocioius weather where there was no
view
of the gound and the sky above was overcast. There was no way to shoot at
star
fix or take a dirft reading from the ground. Working dead reckoning from
England deep into Germany and any change in wind dorection or velocity
that
went undetected made dead reckoning navigation a hit and miss
proposition.
Often it was not just miss, it was gross miss. Knowing all this how could
the
RAF ever hope to pull off these winter night missions successfully? What
was
the logic that made them keep flying under these hopeless navigation
conditions? Anyone know?


This is a complex subject and a matter of some controversy
but unusually these days is on topic so I'll give it a go.

The RAF began the war in 1939 with a plan that envisaged
daylight precision bombing of military targets only. Unfortunately
catastrophic losses on early raids, 50% and higher, proved this
to be impossible. It was quite impossible politically and from
a morale point of view to simply stop bombing the Germans
This was especially true after the Blitz.

An attempt was made to use the techniques you describe
to bomb at night and the results as you would expect were
very mixed. In 1940 raids were mainly aimed at the invasion
barges in French and Belgian Ports and these being relatively
easy to locate at night results were acceptable.

However as targets deep in Germany were attacked it was evident
that the expected results were not being delivered.

An official report commissioned by the war office from the
economist David Miles Bensusan-Butt revealed that bombing
was shockingly inaccurate. Churchill recognised the importance
of the report - "this is a very serious paper and seems to
require urgent attention" and temporarily suspended bombing while
a solution was sought. This was to consist of four parts

1) The adoption of better navigational aids
2) Better crew training
3) Larger better equipped 4 engined bombers
4) A switch of tactics

Essentially the RAF decided that if they couldnt hit precision targets
then they would switch to targetting things they couldnt miss,
this was area bombing. The idea being that if you couldnt
hit the arms factory in the city you'd settle for flattening the
entire metropolis.

As the war progressed navigational aids like Gee and Oboe along
with Radar aids like H2S and the use of Pathfinders did improve
accuracy a great deal so that by 1944 the RAF were able to
atatck and obliterate targets varying from troop concentrations
in Normandy to entire cities.

Keith


Of course Gee Box and Oboe came very late in the war. I flew a number of Gee
missions as the war drew to a close. But how anyone can do long range dead
reckoning when wind drift and velocity cannot be reliably determined, with no
view of the stars or gound, makes things a bit hopeless. But I would say that
90% or more of those missions were flown without any electronic or radar aids
at all. . Every time I think of those guys up there I am in awe of their
incredible courage and determination under near impossible conditions. BTW, did
they even carry driftmeters?




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: How did the Brits do it?
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 3/10/04 6:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
I think back to the war and the RAF heavies on their night missions.
Missions
flown in the winter usually were in atrocioius weather where there was
no
view
of the gound and the sky above was overcast. There was no way to shoot
at
star
fix or take a dirft reading from the ground. Working dead reckoning
from
England deep into Germany and any change in wind dorection or velocity
that
went undetected made dead reckoning navigation a hit and miss
proposition.
Often it was not just miss, it was gross miss. Knowing all this how
could
the
RAF ever hope to pull off these winter night missions successfully?
What
was
the logic that made them keep flying under these hopeless navigation
conditions? Anyone know?


This is a complex subject and a matter of some controversy
but unusually these days is on topic so I'll give it a go.

The RAF began the war in 1939 with a plan that envisaged
daylight precision bombing of military targets only. Unfortunately
catastrophic losses on early raids, 50% and higher, proved this
to be impossible. It was quite impossible politically and from
a morale point of view to simply stop bombing the Germans
This was especially true after the Blitz.

An attempt was made to use the techniques you describe
to bomb at night and the results as you would expect were
very mixed. In 1940 raids were mainly aimed at the invasion
barges in French and Belgian Ports and these being relatively
easy to locate at night results were acceptable.

However as targets deep in Germany were attacked it was evident
that the expected results were not being delivered.

An official report commissioned by the war office from the
economist David Miles Bensusan-Butt revealed that bombing
was shockingly inaccurate. Churchill recognised the importance
of the report - "this is a very serious paper and seems to
require urgent attention" and temporarily suspended bombing while
a solution was sought. This was to consist of four parts

1) The adoption of better navigational aids
2) Better crew training
3) Larger better equipped 4 engined bombers
4) A switch of tactics

Essentially the RAF decided that if they couldnt hit precision targets
then they would switch to targetting things they couldnt miss,
this was area bombing. The idea being that if you couldnt
hit the arms factory in the city you'd settle for flattening the
entire metropolis.

As the war progressed navigational aids like Gee and Oboe along
with Radar aids like H2S and the use of Pathfinders did improve
accuracy a great deal so that by 1944 the RAF were able to
atatck and obliterate targets varying from troop concentrations
in Normandy to entire cities.

Keith


Of course Gee Box and Oboe came very late in the war. I flew a number of
Gee
missions as the war drew to a close. But how anyone can do long range
dead
reckoning when wind drift and velocity cannot be reliably determined, with
no
view of the stars or gound, makes things a bit hopeless. But I would say
that
90% or more of those missions were flown without any electronic or radar
aids
at all.

Not really Art

Bomber command flew its first mission using Gee in late 1941.

On March 3 1942 the first major raid that utilised gee equipped
aircraft dropping flares for the main force was made against the
Renault works at Billancourt in France. 223 of 235 aircraft
found their target). Losses were very light (one Wellington was lost)
, and damage was evaluated as 'heavy'

By mid summer 1942 almost all BC aircraft had Gee. H2S began
arriving in service in 1943.

Every time I think of those guys up there I am in awe of their
incredible courage and determination under near impossible conditions.
BTW, did
they even carry driftmeters?


Sure but how useful they were on a dark and cloudy night
is another matter.

Keith

Kieth noted in response to Art's question about driftmeters on Bomber Command
A/C:
Sure but how useful they were on a dark and cloudy night
is another matter.

As long as it was overcast not clouds below, it is/was amazing how much info
you could get from one of those suckers.
One light on the ground or the reflection off of one body of water (pond, lake,
stream) provided something to work with as opposed to nothing.
Gee and H2S were a great improvement to accuracy.
It is one pain in the rear to shoot celestial in an a/c bouncing and bucking
around in Northern European skys.

Rick Clark

Subject: How did the Brits do it?
From: (OXMORON1)
Date: 3/10/04 12:15 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Kieth noted in response to Art's question about driftmeters on Bomber Command
A/C:
Sure but how useful they were on a dark and cloudy night
is another matter.

As long as it was overcast not clouds below, it is/was amazing how much info
you could get from one of those suckers.
One light on the ground or the reflection off of one body of water (pond,
lake,
stream) provided something to work with as opposed to nothing.
Gee and H2S were a great improvement to accuracy.
It is one pain in the rear to shoot celestial in an a/c bouncing and bucking
around in Northern European skys.

Rick Clark

Exactly, If you could see a glimmer of anything on the ground you could grab
off a drift reading. Of course the best driftmeter was the Norden bombsight.But
you had to be in the nose to use it. If you were in the nav compartment there
was no way you could get a drift reading You were blind. I always wondered why
they didn't put a driftmeter in the nav compartment. Nothing fancy any simple
driftmeter was better than none. Flying along with no idea of where the wind
was blowing you was not a good feeling.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

As the war progressed navigational aids like Gee and Oboe along
with Radar aids like H2S and the use of Pathfinders did improve
accuracy a great deal so that by 1944 the RAF were able to
atatck and obliterate targets varying from troop concentrations
in Normandy to entire cities.

Keith


Of course Gee Box and Oboe came very late in the war. I flew a number of
Gee
missions as the war drew to a close. But how anyone can do long range
dead
reckoning when wind drift and velocity cannot be reliably determined, with
no
view of the stars or gound, makes things a bit hopeless. But I would say
that
90% or more of those missions were flown without any electronic or radar
aids
at all.

Not really Art

Bomber command flew its first mission using Gee in late 1941.

On March 3 1942 the first major raid that utilised gee equipped
aircraft dropping flares for the main force was made against the
Renault works at Billancourt in France. 223 of 235 aircraft
found their target). Losses were very light (one Wellington was lost)
, and damage was evaluated as 'heavy'

By mid summer 1942 almost all BC aircraft had Gee. H2S began
arriving in service in 1943.



We didn't get Gee until late in 1944 when we flew our first Gee mission..Hated
it because we couldn't see the damage we had (or had not) done. I remember the
briefing before the first Gee mission. we were ttoldf the Germans knew nothing
about Gee. On our first mission we got German jamming grass over our scopes.
Not too efficient because we could still see the blips and complete the mission
ok.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...


We didn't get Gee until late in 1944 when we flew our first Gee
mission..Hated
it because we couldn't see the damage we had (or had not) done. I remember
the
briefing before the first Gee mission. we were ttoldf the Germans knew
nothing
about Gee. On our first mission we got German jamming grass over our
scopes.
Not too efficient because we could still see the blips and complete the
mission
ok.


It would be a matter of priorities, the night bombers got Gee first
because they needed it more and the Pathfinder Squadrons had
priority within Bomber Command

Keith

In message , ArtKramr
writes


snip

We didn't get Gee until late in 1944 when we flew our first Gee mission..Hated
it because we couldn't see the damage we had (or had not) done. I remember the
briefing before the first Gee mission. we were ttoldf the Germans knew nothing
about Gee. On our first mission we got German jamming grass over our scopes.
Not too efficient because we could still see the blips and complete the mission
ok.

I used Gee III once, in a Javelin. Trouble was by the time I'd lined up
the pips and plotted onto a chart we were 60 miles further on...

450 knots does that.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

Subject: How did the Brits do it?
From: "M. J. Powell"
Date: 3/10/04 3:14 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In message , ArtKramr
writes


snip

We didn't get Gee until late in 1944 when we flew our first Gee
mission..Hated
it because we couldn't see the damage we had (or had not) done. I remember
the
briefing before the first Gee mission. we were ttoldf the Germans knew
nothing
about Gee. On our first mission we got German jamming grass over our scopes.
Not too efficient because we could still see the blips and complete the
mission
ok.

I used Gee III once, in a Javelin. Trouble was by the time I'd lined up
the pips and plotted onto a chart we were 60 miles further on...

450 knots does that.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell


We didn't do it that way. when the pips came together it was bombs away and
g'bye Fritz.

..



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

We didn't get Gee until late in 1944 when we flew our first Gee
mission..Hated
it because we couldn't see the damage we had (or had not) done. I remember
the
briefing before the first Gee mission. we were ttoldf the Germans knew
nothing
about Gee.

Art that Intel Weinie was playing with you - the Germans knew enough about GEE
that by 1944, they had already lost more than one Luftwaffe aircraft that was
confirmed to carry a GEE reciever! One of the few times in WWII that both
sides were using a piece of the same electronic gear, for the same purpose.
They built "Rotterdam" / H2S duplicates as well.

v/r
Gordon

Subject: How did the Brits do it?
From: nt (Krztalizer)
Date: 3/10/04 4:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

We didn't get Gee until late in 1944 when we flew our first Gee
mission..Hated
it because we couldn't see the damage we had (or had not) done. I remember
the
briefing before the first Gee mission. we were ttoldf the Germans knew
nothing
about Gee.

Art that Intel Weinie was playing with you - the Germans knew enough about
GEE
that by 1944, they had already lost more than one Luftwaffe aircraft that was
confirmed to carry a GEE reciever! One of the few times in WWII that both
sides were using a piece of the same electronic gear, for the same purpose.
They built "Rotterdam" / H2S duplicates as well.

v/r
Gordon


The moment I saw all that grass jamming my screen I figured as much.
(grin)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer