Instructors: is no combat better?

Peter Stickney wrote:
And then, there was Operation Pinball, the ultimate simulator. Real
bombers with real turrets, but the .50 cals have been replaced with
.30 cals firing frangible (break up on impact) bullets. The targets
are specially armored P-63s that make passes on the student gunner's
airplane. There are acoustic sensors in the P-63s that can hear the
impact of the bullets on the skin for measuring the number of hits.

Wooden bullets, if I recall correctly. An old family friend,
now passed on, experienced some of this.

He said the ballistics of the frangible bullets were so far off
from Real Life (tm) that the usefulness was limited.


Jeff

Subject: Instructors: is no combat better?
From: "Jeff Crowell"
Date: 3/10/04 12:01 PM Pacific Standard Time

He said the ballistics of the frangible bullets were so far off
from Real Life (tm) that the usefulness was limited.


Jeff

Actually there was an error between regular rounds and tracer rounds as well.
On a strafing mission you could aim the tracers and see the ground kick up well
behind the tracers. Big difference in ballistic coefficient between the two Aim
the tracers and you would shoot over the target unil you corrected..


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
Actually there was an error between regular rounds and tracer rounds as
well.
On a strafing mission you could aim the tracers and see the ground kick up
well
behind the tracers. Big difference in ballistic coefficient between the
two Aim
the tracers and you would shoot over the target unil you corrected..

Art, that's because of the make up of the tracer round :
Each "tracer round" has a firefly, with 5 years food, packed into the rear
of the round.
The firefly goes into a deep sleep and slowly absorbs the food.
When the round is fired, the shock wakes the fly and his/her arse lights up.
After 5 years, if the round is not fired, the fly dies and the round is
re-classified as Ball.
(it's all in the latest manuals) :-)

Subject: Instructors: is no combat better?
From: "Sunny"
Date: 3/10/04 3:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
Actually there was an error between regular rounds and tracer rounds as
well.
On a strafing mission you could aim the tracers and see the ground kick up
well
behind the tracers. Big difference in ballistic coefficient between the
two Aim
the tracers and you would shoot over the target unil you corrected..

Art, that's because of the make up of the tracer round :
Each "tracer round" has a firefly, with 5 years food, packed into the rear
of the round.
The firefly goes into a deep sleep and slowly absorbs the food.
When the round is fired, the shock wakes the fly and his/her arse lights up.
After 5 years, if the round is not fired, the fly dies and the round is
re-classified as Ball.
(it's all in the latest manuals) :-)




ROFL ! Love it.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"Sunny" wrote in message
...
|
| "ArtKramr" wrote in message
| ...
| snip
| Actually there was an error between regular rounds and tracer rounds as
| well.
| On a strafing mission you could aim the tracers and see the ground kick
up
| well
| behind the tracers. Big difference in ballistic coefficient between the
| two Aim
| the tracers and you would shoot over the target unil you corrected..
|
| Art, that's because of the make up of the tracer round :
| Each "tracer round" has a firefly, with 5 years food, packed into the rear
| of the round.
| The firefly goes into a deep sleep and slowly absorbs the food.
| When the round is fired, the shock wakes the fly and his/her arse lights
up.
| After 5 years, if the round is not fired, the fly dies and the round is
| re-classified as Ball.
| (it's all in the latest manuals) :-)
|





Sounds like ball to me ;-)






Cheers


Dave Kearton

In article , "Sunny"
wrote:

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
Actually there was an error between regular rounds and tracer rounds as
well.
On a strafing mission you could aim the tracers and see the ground kick
up
well
behind the tracers. Big difference in ballistic coefficient between the
two Aim
the tracers and you would shoot over the target unil you corrected..

Art, that's because of the make up of the tracer round :
Each "tracer round" has a firefly, with 5 years food, packed into the
rear
of the round.
The firefly goes into a deep sleep and slowly absorbs the food.
When the round is fired, the shock wakes the fly and his/her arse lights
up.
After 5 years, if the round is not fired, the fly dies and the round is
re-classified as Ball.
(it's all in the latest manuals) :-)




Recently declassified is the equivalent for artillery, which was a
spinoff of Santa's technology. We've long prepared for attacks from the
North Pole, but we never suspected the technology testbed.

Oh, everyone talks about Rudolph, and how his bright nose serves as
Santa's active navigational imaging system illuminator. Rudolph had it
rough...guzzle away at reindeer-sized beer kegs every night, and your
nose might be red too.

But what recently came out is the preparation that the yet-unidentified
Tracking and IFF Tail Reindeer had to do. Gentle readers, I draw a
merciful curtain of security of what he had to do to have his posterior
glow, much as the tracking flare on a wire-guided antitank missile.
*wince* Let us merely say that available soft toilet tissue technology
doesn't begin to meet operational requirements.

"Howard Berkowitz" wrote in message
...
In article , "Sunny"
wrote:

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
Actually there was an error between regular rounds and tracer rounds
as
well.
On a strafing mission you could aim the tracers and see the ground
kick
up
well
behind the tracers. Big difference in ballistic coefficient between
the
two Aim
the tracers and you would shoot over the target unil you corrected..

Art, that's because of the make up of the tracer round :
Each "tracer round" has a firefly, with 5 years food, packed into the
rear
of the round.
The firefly goes into a deep sleep and slowly absorbs the food.
When the round is fired, the shock wakes the fly and his/her arse lights
up.
After 5 years, if the round is not fired, the fly dies and the round is
re-classified as Ball.
(it's all in the latest manuals) :-)




Recently declassified is the equivalent for artillery, which was a
spinoff of Santa's technology. We've long prepared for attacks from the
North Pole, but we never suspected the technology testbed.

Oh, everyone talks about Rudolph, and how his bright nose serves as
Santa's active navigational imaging system illuminator. Rudolph had it
rough...guzzle away at reindeer-sized beer kegs every night, and your
nose might be red too.

But what recently came out is the preparation that the yet-unidentified
Tracking and IFF Tail Reindeer had to do. Gentle readers, I draw a
merciful curtain of security of what he had to do to have his posterior
glow, much as the tracking flare on a wire-guided antitank missile.
*wince* Let us merely say that available soft toilet tissue technology
doesn't begin to meet operational requirements.

Santa needs a girl like Monica.

(ArtKramr) wrote:


Actually there was an error between regular rounds and tracer rounds as well.
On a strafing mission you could aim the tracers and see the ground kick up well
behind the tracers. Big difference in ballistic coefficient between the two Aim
the tracers and you would shoot over the target unil you corrected..


Arthur Kramer

Ok...what calibre rounds was that Art?. Your observations
certainly wasn't true for the .303 calibre Browning machine gun.

I've fired likely 20,000 rounds from them in ASW B&G flights and
I cannot see any difference between the trajectory of FMJ ball
ammo and FMJ tracer rounds. Our belts were set up with every
fifth round being a tracer and shooting at a smoke marker on the
sea surface it's very easy to see where the rounds are hitting,
likely much more visible than on land but I haven't done that
mind you.

I found it more effective to use the results of the water hits
rather than to use the gunsight actually. Get them shooting close
to where you needed to with the sight then watch were they were
hitting and correct slightly before firing the next burst and so
on.
--

-Gord.

Subject: Instructors: is no combat better?
From: "Gord Beaman" )

Ok...what calibre rounds was that Art?. Your observations
certainly wasn't true for the .303 calibre Browning machine gun

We had no .303's. Only .50 caliber heavy mg's.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 05:13:36 GMT, "Gord Beaman" )
wrote:

(ArtKramr) wrote:


Actually there was an error between regular rounds and tracer rounds as well.
On a strafing mission you could aim the tracers and see the ground kick up well
behind the tracers. Big difference in ballistic coefficient between the two Aim
the tracers and you would shoot over the target unil you corrected..


Arthur Kramer

Ok...what calibre rounds was that Art?. Your observations
certainly wasn't true for the .303 calibre Browning machine gun.

I've fired likely 20,000 rounds from them in ASW B&G flights and
I cannot see any difference between the trajectory of FMJ ball
ammo and FMJ tracer rounds. Our belts were set up with every
fifth round being a tracer and shooting at a smoke marker on the
sea surface it's very easy to see where the rounds are hitting,
likely much more visible than on land but I haven't done that
mind you.

I found it more effective to use the results of the water hits
rather than to use the gunsight actually. Get them shooting close
to where you needed to with the sight then watch were they were
hitting and correct slightly before firing the next burst and so
on.


Now I admit to being only 23... far too young to have been spraying
bullets around in WW2...

But I hunt wild goats and deer with a '40 Ishapore armoury .303 SMLE
Mk1 III* with the stock cut down... a damn fine hunting rifle that
with a 4x scope will down a beer can at 200 metres..

Here in NZ there is occasionally WW2 army surplus tracer rounds for
the .303 available, and firing those and normal army surplus ball
theres no noticable difference in point of impact...