PowerFLARM updates and installation notes

On 6/4/2012 7:46 AM, CLewis95 wrote:
.... .....You want to keep it simple?

STEP 1: Buy a Portable PowerFLARM STEP 2: Stick it on top of your
glareshield STEP 3: Make sure the antennas are pointed straight
up. STEP 4: (Optional?) Run a wire from your power-bus/battery to
the PowerFLARM.

How hard is that?

--Noel

This (Noel's comment) is what I "planned/hoped" to do in my Genesis.

Interested if there have been any reports of interference between a
CAI Model 20 mounted near Portable Flarm(?). My Model 20 is mounted
behind instrument pod with antenna ~flush with top. The portable
would be about 10" ahead on top of pod (so antenna bases would be ~1"
above GPS-20 antenna). Flarm antennas can easily stand vertical.

Any comments appreciated!

I've been told about 12" separation in GPS antennas is adequate, and
your situation sounds like it qualifies. In practice, I've had no
trouble with GPS antennas only 8" apart and at the same height.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Jun 4, 4:21*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
On Jun 4, 7:25*am, Evan Ludeman wrote:

I think most people will find that the brick is an easier, more
cockpit friendly install. *I would recommend against buying a portable

Evan - I was specifically responding to RAS56's complaints about
complexity. *The Portable is (by definition) a self-contained unit
with no worries about an external display or other wiring.

--Noel

I understand that Noel... but in practice the "simplicity" of the
portable is a huge farking liability w.r.t. successful installation in
at least half the single place glider fleet.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Evan's point remains the main reason there is so much reluctance to install this thing: If you've never used the technology, it's bad!
Groups who would like to experience without buying can probably rent some during a time period there is no contest running, and fly together.
When the Nimbus 3 (now Steve Leonard's) was in Australia, it had a stick-on antenna in the front right corner of the canopy for the OzFLARM. The placement wasn't perfect (a dead spot down to the left) and the antenna is hard to move after it's stuck on. Before that I used the standard antenna on the set-top box but

replaced the black cover of the antenna with clear tubing.

This really made the thing disappear. If the visual bothers you, perhaps try that.
Nice installation images and reviews, Dave.
Jim

WOW! Who wouldn't want one???

The pilot that hasn't tried one.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:53:48 -0700 (PDT), John Cochrane
wrote:

.... text deleted
Again -- the world is full of dipole antennas with physical and
electrical connectors at the base. Why oh why are you not using such
an antenna in this most obvious place for it?

John Cochrane

Per T8's suggestion, I looked at the VDP series 1/2 wave dipole
antennas from Linx;
http://www.linxtechnologies.com/prod...ipole-antenna/

comparing with what appears to be the standard PowerFlarm brick
dipole;
http://www.linxtechnologies.com/prod...ipole-antenna/

the VDP is about 0.7 inch longer, and maybe 10% worse VSWR. Otherwise
the datasheet specs look identical. Both cost under $10.

The big plus is that the very thin flat antenna (with a bottom mount
coax) will be much easier to integrate into our ships. And it will
look much more attractive.

I cut out a cardboard facsimile and was able to fit it to the front
cowling of both a Ventus 2cx and a Ventus C. Not much clearance in the
Ventus 2, but it cleared the canopy by mayb 1/2 inch..

I notice on the Butterfly site that they have a bottom fed antenna
that is cited to have "high performance" with the PowerFlarm.
http://www.butterfly-store.de/en/Ext...FLARM ,i7.htm
Unfortunately, no indication of how tall this antenna is.

To echo John's comment, there has to be a better solution than the
current fat dipole with the center feed coax.

We've come too far and fought too hard to get Flarm into the US
sailplane fleet to let this antenna issue stall widespread acceptance.
If PowerFlarm is to really impact collision statistics, we need to get
nearly 100% fleet penetration. I fear this will not happen with the
fat center-fed dipole. It may work the best, but if it looks ugly or
is difficult to install, we will not get wide fleet penetration.

This is an important issue for the full acceptance of PowerFlarm in
the US !

Bob

Looking on this site (http://www.butterfly-store.de/en/Col...LARM/Antennas/) it appears there are a lot of antenna options available. In particular, I like the high-performance external antenna - I could see mounting it on the top of the fuselage aft of the canopy, where it should have a really good field of view and not clutter up the cockpit - and I really don't care about the drag (probably about the same as a transponder antenna).

Sure would be cool if someone came up with a faired streamlined external antenna - for both the ads-b and flarm - that could be externally mounted.

For Dave Nadler: Will this antenna work with a US PF brick?: http://www.butterfly-store.de/en/Ext...ce+FLARM .htm

Kirk
66

On Monday, June 4, 2012 11:49:42 AM UTC-6, Steve Leonard wrote:
On Jun 4, 9:46*am, CLewis95 wrote:

This (Noel's comment) is what I "planned/hoped" to do in my Genesis.

Interested if there have been any reports of interference between a CAI Model 20 mounted near Portable Flarm(?). *My Model 20 is mounted behind instrument pod with antenna ~flush with top. *The portable would be about 10" ahead on top of pod (so antenna bases would be ~1" above GPS-20 antenna). *Flarm antennas can easily stand vertical.

Any comments appreciated!

Curt - 95

Curt,
I have a Model 20 located under the glareshield of my Nimbus 3. It is
less than a foot ahead of and below the portable FLARM mounted on top
of the glare shield. Only time I had a problem was at the end of one
day, when pushing back to the tiedown spot, the FLARM came loose from
it velcro mount and slide to the front of the glareshield. The GPS
location in the Cambridge took a big jump away from Garner Field
(during the Open Nationals last year, at Uvalde). Seemed to have as
good a FLARM reception and transmit as anyone else there.

I also have a flight with the portable installed on top of the panel
on my BS1. Cambridge Model 20 secured to the top of the panel,
probably not more than 2-3 inches between the boxes. No problems with
the Cambrigde log. Not sure of the FLARM performance with that
installation. Couldn't get my antenna vertical and there was only one
other FLARM equipped plane flying, so I need to make a different
mount. Anyone interested in making cables in standard lengths (6 inch
increments, maybe?) to go from the portable to a base mount for the
supplied antenna? Yes, YO, I am working on getting more seperation of
the two.

If the prefered antenna seems to be the dipole with a simple plastic
angle bracket for mounting, are we going to see this become the
standard antenna shipped with FLARM units at some point in the
future? Less m ounting height required than the rubber duckie that
had to be mounted at the top of the portable because of the batter
box. Just a thought.

Steve Leonard
ZS, VJS, KN, PN, and a few others.

I'd recommend 3M Dual-Lock, much stronger than Velcro or other hook and loop fasteners for your delicate electronic gear, especially if movable between your mistresses. Typically 5X stronger.
http://tinyurl.com/7u7t6q5

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

Good to finally see some installation examples of both the good and bad.

As an early adopter and a staunch supporter of PowerFlarm and a contributor to the rental fund I do hope that we see better instructions, recommendations and antenna replacements for the early adopters. The Hall of Shame examples may not be great, but they are all logical attempts at wedging the admittedly oversized portable into the cockpit.

I say oversized only because a good portion of the glider fleet (most if not all Schleichers I think) don't have sufficient room for the portable unit in the optimal place. Even in a DG with a relatively low pedestal, the portable flarm and antenna really get in the way of your over the nose view.

I think most pilots will be really happy with the brick given a little attention to the install. I will likely brickify one or more installations of the portable with an external display and antenna improvement when they are available.

Most of all, once you fly with one you'll start wishing everyone had one. Range limitations from questionable installs and all, the beep of a nearby glider raising your awareness is really slick.

On Monday, June 4, 2012 2:59:08 PM UTC+9, noel.wade wrote:
On Jun 3, 6:51*pm, RAS56 wrote:
But c'mon now...for those of us who don't like to spend our time off upside down in our cockpits chasing wires, fussing with antennas

RAS56 - Sounds like you're worrying about alot without even
investigating things. You want to keep it simple?

STEP 1: Buy a Portable PowerFLARM
STEP 2: Stick it on top of your glareshield
STEP 3: Make sure the antennas are pointed straight up.
STEP 4: (Optional?) Run a wire from your power-bus/battery to the
PowerFLARM.

How hard is that?

--Noel

Mr. Wade, I have investigated it probably more than the average glider pilot in the USA, seeing as how my name was one the list for a delivery until I ask it to be removed. I've probably missed an update or two as my interest has waned as the system has entered service with the problems it's had.

I have modeled the PF portable in the recommended position of my ASW glider and my take was
that it would be a major problem getting the antennas vertical between the glare shield and the
canopy.

Also, with it there I was very concerned with the amount of sky immediately in front of the aircraft blocked by an installation like this. With "see and avoid" STILL the main way to avoid a collision, doesn't it seem obvious to not install something that blocks your ability to effectively clear immediately in front of your glider? I have a large amount of time in the back seat of a T-38 trainer. You wouldn't believe how a simple thing like placement of the whiskey compass (upper RH side of front canopy bow) complicated a simple thing like runway aim point from back there when you had a left crosswind. It could cover a large section of what you were hoping was the touchdown zone on a 300' wide runway! Sticking a PF portable up there can have the same effect, in effect creating a large blind spot right where the threat is highest.

Since the vast majority of the USA glider fleet will not have any Flarm equipment ( I would be the only adopter in my 50+ member central US glider operation for example) reducing my ability to clear would be a net decrease, not increase in safety at my location. Others I'm sure would think likewise.

For those reasons, I decided to put my dollars into the brick version, which with antennas protruding still creates a clearing problem, just not one as severe as with the portable. However, when I began to hear the aforementioned problems getting the brick working correct, I decided to step off the technology treadmill and wait for NextGen Flarm to arrive. One with all the promised features working, that doesn't affect me seeing the bogie and is user -friendly in install, use and maintenance. I am confident, if the system delivers as promised, that that future version will arrive, and when it does I will be happy to plunk down my hard-earned dollars for one.

Regards,

RAS56

On Jun 4, 10:42*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:

I'd recommend 3M Dual-Lock, much stronger than Velcro or other hook and loop fasteners for your delicate electronic gear, especially if movable between your mistresses. *Typically 5X stronger.http://tinyurl.com/7u7t6q5

Frank Whiteley


Just to be contrary, Frank, I do NOT like the Dual-Lock. It takes
considerably more pressure to engage than regualr velcro. And more
pressure over a larger area (the strip they supply with the portable
takes considerable force to engage if you put it on two, flat, firm
surfaces) means you have to push down pretty hard on the top of the
case of that device to get the stuff to engage. More than once, I had
it come loose and slide down the slope of the glareshield of the
Nimbus. Installation for the one flight so far in the BS1 was with
black electrical tape over the top of it. It never even thought of
trying to move. This is not a good, permanent solution for my
portable, but mine won't get held down with Dual-Lock. I am looking
in to brackets and using the small, threaded mounting holes for each
installation.

Steve Leonard

This thread is part of a larger picture - general antenna
installations. This involves all the radio devices in a modern
sailplane. The problem is the cockpit is a lousy place for antennas
since there's little room, it's full of RF noise and absorbing/
reflecting stuff like the pilot. External antennas are way too
draggy. A good guess is this problem is going to get worse as new
gadgets are added.

Long ago a solution was found for the Com antenna by mounting it in
the fin. If that works for the com antenna, why not PowerFlarm,
transponers etc? The obvious objection is access - the fin is a
sealed box. However, this sport has a lot of very clever people who
have solved worse problems.