Is there a place for Traditional CAS in the 21st century?

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:44:13 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:


Do you think Cleland was fragged?

No, Cleland was a victim of his own clumsiness. He dropped the grenade
out of his own hand. That story is pretty well known.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:44:13 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:


Do you think Cleland was fragged?

No, Cleland was a victim of his own clumsiness. He dropped the grenade
out of his own hand. That story is pretty well known.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Actually, recently the story was changed due to another soldier coming
forth and admitting that it was his grenade, and that he had straightened
the pin, having been told that was the warrior like thing to do.

The story was well covered here in Georgia.

I guess I could find a link if you wish.

Bob McKellar, former Cleland constituent

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:44:13 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:


Do you think Cleland was fragged?

No, Cleland was a victim of his own clumsiness. He dropped the grenade
out of his own hand. That story is pretty well known.

Actually, Ed, if you do a Google on it there is some evidence to support
that may not have been the case. Cleland thought that was what must have
happened, but another man who was on the ground with him now claims it was
another individual who dropped the grenade. Nobody can no for sure, and it
really does not matter in the end.

Brooks



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:44:13 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:


Do you think Cleland was fragged?

No, Cleland was a victim of his own clumsiness. He dropped the grenade
out of his own hand. That story is pretty well known.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

For what it's worth, we just got a USMC Hornet exchange pilot on our
squadron who was in both Afghanistan. He did a LOT of CAS, and his
experience was that JDAM and LGBs just weren't working for the job.
The solution - "traditional CAS - in his own words they were operating
" as low as they could "- often down @ 100-200 feet. I watched a
zillion of his HUD tapes from Iraq. Believe it or not, his unit used
almost exclusively dumb bombs, unguided rockets, and CBUs.

On 14 Mar 2004 20:44:45 -0800, (monkey) wrote:

For what it's worth, we just got a USMC Hornet exchange pilot on our
squadron who was in both Afghanistan. He did a LOT of CAS, and his
experience was that JDAM and LGBs just weren't working for the job.
The solution - "traditional CAS - in his own words they were operating
" as low as they could "- often down @ 100-200 feet. I watched a
zillion of his HUD tapes from Iraq. Believe it or not, his unit used
almost exclusively dumb bombs, unguided rockets, and CBUs.

If the weather is good and you aren't a classic "troops-in-contact"
situation there isn't much reason to be dealing with 100-200 feet. Way
too much can go wrong to justify that type of delivery. If the bad
guys are in the wires, then every tactical aviator I've known will do
what is necessary.

That being said, however, I didn't know that "unguided rockets" were
still in the inventory for regular carry. And, I'm unfamiliar with any
type of CBU that can be delivered at 100-200 feet. Last one of those I
believe was the infamous CBU-2 which pushed the bomblets out the back
of a canister that was retained on the airplane.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote in message . ..
On 14 Mar 2004 20:44:45 -0800, (monkey) wrote:

For what it's worth, we just got a USMC Hornet exchange pilot on our
squadron who was in both Afghanistan. He did a LOT of CAS, and his
experience was that JDAM and LGBs just weren't working for the job.
The solution - "traditional CAS - in his own words they were operating
" as low as they could "- often down @ 100-200 feet. I watched a
zillion of his HUD tapes from Iraq. Believe it or not, his unit used
almost exclusively dumb bombs, unguided rockets, and CBUs.

If the weather is good and you aren't a classic "troops-in-contact"
situation there isn't much reason to be dealing with 100-200 feet. Way
too much can go wrong to justify that type of delivery. If the bad
guys are in the wires, then every tactical aviator I've known will do
what is necessary.

That being said, however, I didn't know that "unguided rockets" were
still in the inventory for regular carry. And, I'm unfamiliar with any
type of CBU that can be delivered at 100-200 feet. Last one of those I
believe was the infamous CBU-2 which pushed the bomblets out the back
of a canister that was retained on the airplane.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Hey, Ed, I'm just repeating what the guy said. It should be fairly
obviuos to anyone that you can't drop a CBU or bomb from 100 feet - I
was referring to the low stuff as his altitude of choice to negate
threats - I assume that he used SOP MAP for the above mentioned
weapons. I'm not sure which rocket pods they were using but i did view
several hud tapes of them in use.

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:44:13 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:


Do you think Cleland was fragged?

No, Cleland was a victim of his own clumsiness. He dropped the grenade
out of his own hand. That story is pretty well known.

Ummm....No.

One of his men, who didn't know how th rig his pin
properly, dropped his grenade, and Cleland THOUGHT that it was
one of his.

Since he knew that he rigged his properly, he picked it
up.

All the planning in the world doesn't matter when an
angel pees down the barrel of your rifle.
--
--Matthew Saroff
Rules to live by:
1) To thine own self be true
2) Don't let your mouth write no checks that your butt can't cash
3) Interference in the time stream is forbidden, do not meddle in causality
Check http://www.pobox.com/~msaroff, including The Bad Hair Web Page