Glider crow-hops:

On Thursday, August 23, 2012 6:47:34 AM UTC-6, J-Soar wrote:
I am a newly soloed student pilot, still flying the club's 2-seat trainer.. I'll be moving to the club's single-seater soon. Then I hope to be allowed by my instructor to make solo flights in my own mid-performance sailplane that I bought before starting glider lessons. It was flown by advanced solo students at a far-away club, so should be OK for me to fly.



I have built and flown a number of powered ultralights over the years, some of my own design, and have always started out doing lots of crow-hops in them before the actual first flight. The crow-hops have helped me get used to the feel of it, operating the controls, and to get some experience in takeoff, touchdown, roll out, and dealing with mild cross winds, before taking on the whole flight and it's associated risks.



My instructor, nor any one around, have had experience in the particular glider that I own. For various reasons I can't let anyone else fly it first to advise me about how to fly it. So no help there.



So I'm thinking that doing crow-hops in it might be a good idea before my actual first flights in it. They would be by auto-tow, on a 5000' runway, accelerating quickly to the normal touch down speed of the glider, getting no more than 3 feet high. Then right away releasing, pulling on the air-brakes, and landing straight ahead. Of course I would be using a driver who knows about glider towing issues and would get out of the way.



Any thoughts or comments about this idea?



Thanks in advance,

Jerry Booker

I'll differ somewhat from the others and say what you describe as "crow hops" is a workable idea. Auto towing to lift-off speed and releasing for an immediate flare and touchdown is often used as a way to "feel out" an experimental glider. It gives the pilot a chance to explore critical takeoff and landing behavior at minimum energy in case something goes wrong. It's the glider equivalent of "taxi tests".

If I were your instructor, I'd approve it.

Teaching yourself to ground launch is a bad idea. Work with an instructor experienced in ground launch and get sighed off first. There are many things that can go wrong and it’s not as simple as you think. Have you read about the accident in Cle Elum last year?

Boggs

On Aug 23, 7:41*am, Waveguru wrote:
Teaching yourself to ground launch is a bad idea. *Work with an instructor experienced in ground launch and get sighed off first. *There are many things that can go wrong and it’s not as simple as you think. *Have you read about the accident in Cle Elum last year?

Boggs

I've built and test flown 3 sailplanes, one that was our own design.
Each one was initially flight tested by me using the "crow-hop"
method. I would be happy to share with you what my process was and
what was learned from these tests.

You can contact me directly via Bob K thru the hpaircraft website.

Or you can ask the smart guys here who have never built or crow hopped
a sailplane.

Dick Schreder must be spinning in his grave.

Brad

"Brad" wrote in message
...

On Aug 23, 7:41 am, Waveguru wrote:
Teaching yourself to ground launch is a bad idea. Work with an
instructor experienced in ground launch and get sighed off first. There
are many things that can go wrong and it’s not as simple as you think.
Have you read about the accident in Cle Elum last year?

Boggs

I've built and test flown 3 sailplanes, one that was our own design.
Each one was initially flight tested by me using the "crow-hop"
method. I would be happy to share with you what my process was and
what was learned from these tests.

You can contact me directly via Bob K thru the hpaircraft website.

Or you can ask the smart guys here who have never built or crow hopped
a sailplane.

Dick Schreder must be spinning in his grave.


http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-14/HP14-ft.html

Been there, done that!

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

On Aug 23, 11:06*am, Brad wrote:
On Aug 23, 7:41*am, Waveguru wrote:

Teaching yourself to ground launch is a bad idea. *Work with an instructor experienced in ground launch and get sighed off first. *There are many things that can go wrong and it’s not as simple as you think. *Have you read about the accident in Cle Elum last year?

Boggs

I've built and test flown 3 sailplanes, one that was our own design.
Each one was initially flight tested by me using the "crow-hop"
method. I would be happy to share with you what my process was and
what was learned from these tests.

You can contact me directly via Bob K thru the hpaircraft website.

Or you can ask the smart guys here who have never built or crow hopped
a sailplane.

Dick Schreder must be spinning in his grave.

Brad

Dick gave specific admonishments to low time pilots not to do their
own test flying. Great advice, imo.

-Evan / T8

On Aug 23, 10:06*am, Brad wrote:
On Aug 23, 7:41*am, Waveguru wrote:

Teaching yourself to ground launch is a bad idea. *Work with an instructor experienced in ground launch and get sighed off first. *There are many things that can go wrong and it’s not as simple as you think. *Have you read about the accident in Cle Elum last year?

Boggs

I've built and test flown 3 sailplanes, one that was our own design.
Each one was initially flight tested by me using the "crow-hop"
method. I would be happy to share with you what my process was and
what was learned from these tests.

You can contact me directly via Bob K thru the hpaircraft website.

Or you can ask the smart guys here who have never built or crow hopped
a sailplane.

Dick Schreder must be spinning in his grave.

Brad

So, let's clarify. "Crow hops" are commonly done by very experienced
pilots, acting as test pilots for new designs or homebuilt aircraft.
They are doing crow hops to establish if the glider is airworthy and
controllable, and following a detailed plan. Most recently, Dick
Butler and Concordia.

"Crow hops" are not advised as a way for pilots to make a transition
to different aircraft types, especially for newer and less experienced
pilots.

The OP didn't tell us what kind of glider he had bought before
starting flying lessons, only that nobody he knew had any flight
experience in type. And he had previous building experience. This
starts to smell of new pilot AND untested glider, a homebuilt or old
project that has been sitting around for many years whose
airworthiness is in question. Needless to say that is a deadly
combination.

John Cochrane

It's an Apis 13m. Anyone with a web browser can figure that out.

You should be able to network your way to experience with the type and
develop a transition plan with an experienced CFIG. I don't see the
problem.

-Evan / T8

On Aug 23, 9:01*am, Evan Ludeman wrote:
It's an Apis 13m. *Anyone with a web browser can figure that out.

You should be able to network your way to experience with the type and
develop a transition plan with an experienced CFIG. *I don't see the
problem.

-Evan / T8

jeez, an Apis-13......................I have 800 hours in an
Apis-13................perhaps I just might know what I am talking
about?

Brad

On Aug 23, 9:26*am, Brad wrote:
On Aug 23, 9:01*am, Evan Ludeman wrote:

It's an Apis 13m. *Anyone with a web browser can figure that out.

You should be able to network your way to experience with the type and
develop a transition plan with an experienced CFIG. *I don't see the
problem.

-Evan / T8

jeez, an Apis-13......................I have 800 hours in an
Apis-13................perhaps I just might know what I am talking
about?

Brad

The Apis line of sailplanes are very easy to fly. No surprises.

The Apis I built I actually flew first time under high-tow.

Crow hops in very light sailplanes can be a handful, since they
accelerate so much faster and want to get airborne much faster than
heavier sailplanes.

Find a CFI-G to work with, get a good cockpit check out and then go
have fun. Who's did you buy?

Brad

On Aug 23, 12:26*pm, Brad wrote:
On Aug 23, 9:01*am, Evan Ludeman wrote:

It's an Apis 13m. *Anyone with a web browser can figure that out.

You should be able to network your way to experience with the type and
develop a transition plan with an experienced CFIG. *I don't see the
problem.

-Evan / T8

jeez, an Apis-13......................I have 800 hours in an
Apis-13................perhaps I just might know what I am talking
about?

Brad

Exactly. You could be the experience resource. Add a CFIG that has
managed a few pilot transitions and stir.

Proper pre-flight brief and planning, big airport, smooth air, high
tow, proper pattern, *stabilized approach*, great landing, beers and
smiles all around.

Crow hops are what you do if you have concerns about the
controllability of the glider. This is just a simple pilot transition
exercise. My $0.02.

-Evan / T8