Best performing Vario?

On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:56:22 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:

This is also why I am concerned about it taking 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. In terms of eyes-in-the-cockpit, that is a much more serious situation, requiring maybe 30 seconds of concentrated effort - vs. 3 seconds or so for the better products.

Please explain how it takes you 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. Are you talking about making a task change inflight? That takes 8 total from map to map, to change or add a tp in a task. Or are you talking about selecting a new tp to steer to? That takes 3 actions. SYM is not the best, but it's not bad either.

Kirk

On Friday, October 5, 2012 8:04:55 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:56:22 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:



This is also why I am concerned about it taking 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. In terms of eyes-in-the-cockpit, that is a much more serious situation, requiring maybe 30 seconds of concentrated effort - vs. 3 seconds or so for the better products.



Please explain how it takes you 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. Are you talking about making a task change inflight? That takes 8 total from map to map, to change or add a tp in a task. Or are you talking about selecting a new tp to steer to? That takes 3 actions. SYM is not the best, but it's not bad either.



Kirk

I am talking about an in-flight addition or replacement of turnpoint in a task. When I do it in SYM it takes 9 plus however much scrolling is involved in finding the turn point. Maybe there is an easier way than the ones I have figured out? MenuTask(select where or what you want to changeInsert....(scroll to turnpointhiglightSelectOkOk - 9+, isn't it? This is the worst of the programs I have actually tried in flight. A few of the buttons are small and hard to hit in turbulence, for example the ellipsis (...). Even just deleting a point is 7 buttons.

I don't think I have counted them up on XCSoar. WP is 4+ and less fiddly buttons too. iGlide is one!

On Friday, October 5, 2012 1:23:14 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:

I am talking about an in-flight addition or replacement of turnpoint in a task. When I do it in SYM it takes 9 plus however much scrolling is involved in finding the turn point. Maybe there is an easier way than the ones I have figured out? MenuTask(select where or what you want to changeInsert...(scroll to turnpointhiglightSelectOkOk - 9+, isn't it? This is the worst of the programs I have actually tried in flight. A few of the buttons are small and hard to hit in turbulence, for example the ellipsis (...).. Even just deleting a point is 7 buttons.
I don't think I have counted them up on XCSoar. WP is 4+ and less fiddly buttons too. iGlide is one!

Agree that some of the buttons are a bit small - but getting better. Hopefully, competition from XCSoar and LK8000 will bring some changes. But as far as changing tasks inflight - that isn't done in Europe (and really shouldn't be done in the US, IMHO), so wasn't probably a priority. Easy enough to program several tasks and just choose the one you need.

To add to a task: Task - Tools - Map - touch the desired tp - Yes to append point - OK. 6 taps.

To delete from a task: Task - select tp to delete - tools - Delete Point - YES - OK, 6 taps.

Not great (I used to use WP and do remember that it's task selection procedure was better) but OK.

How can iGlide use one tap to add or delete a point?

Kirk
66

On Friday, October 5, 2012 11:46:15 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, October 5, 2012 1:23:14 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:



I am talking about an in-flight addition or replacement of turnpoint in a task. When I do it in SYM it takes 9 plus however much scrolling is involved in finding the turn point. Maybe there is an easier way than the ones I have figured out? MenuTask(select where or what you want to changeInsert...(scroll to turnpointhiglightSelectOkOk - 9+, isn't it? This is the worst of the programs I have actually tried in flight. A few of the buttons are small and hard to hit in turbulence, for example the ellipsis (....). Even just deleting a point is 7 buttons.

I don't think I have counted them up on XCSoar. WP is 4+ and less fiddly buttons too. iGlide is one!



Agree that some of the buttons are a bit small - but getting better. Hopefully, competition from XCSoar and LK8000 will bring some changes. But as far as changing tasks inflight - that isn't done in Europe (and really shouldn't be done in the US, IMHO), so wasn't probably a priority. Easy enough to program several tasks and just choose the one you need.



To add to a task: Task - Tools - Map - touch the desired tp - Yes to append point - OK. 6 taps.



To delete from a task: Task - select tp to delete - tools - Delete Point - YES - OK, 6 taps.



Not great (I used to use WP and do remember that it's task selection procedure was better) but OK.



How can iGlide use one tap to add or delete a point?



Kirk

66

I don't fly contests, but fly each day as a sort of POST task. I add turnpoints as I decide where to go. This is how many recreational pilots I know fly as well.

The method you describe only appends a turnpoint to the end . I did find I could change a turnpoint by MenuTaskToolsMapselect zoom(guess what zoom you need and click on i)t(click and drag turnpoint to new location)OK. That's only 8 clicks, certainly better than adding the new and deleting the old from the list which takes around 15 clicks minimum. Typing in the name of the waypoint is *really* a poor way of doing it.

On iGlide, you simply tap and drag the turnpoint you want to move. To add another, tap and drag the task segment you want to add it to - a new turnpoint is created and rubber bands the task to fit. To delete a turnpoint, tap and drag it onto the next or previous one. In any case, only one tap and drag. I have run iGlide on an iPhone 4S. Even though the screen is smaller, it is more legible than most PDAs, certainly better than SYM or WP on an iPaq. I haven't flown with an Oudie. iGlide is not yet feature complete, but the user interface is decades ahead of anything else.

Here's another vote for V7 + Oudie + Nano. It's been working great for me this summer. I like that it's easy to configure, affordable-ish, and mostly foolproof. It's also a super-cool looking display and a compact installation.

Jim

On Saturday, October 6, 2012 1:44:17 AM UTC+1, jfitch wrote:

The method you describe only appends a turnpoint to the end . I did find I could change a turnpoint by MenuTaskToolsMapselect zoom(guess what zoom you need and click on i)t(click and drag turnpoint to new location)OK.. That's only 8 clicks, certainly better than adding the new and deleting the old from the list which takes around 15 clicks minimum. Typing in the name of the waypoint is *really* a poor way of doing it.


Strange how people differ. I would not contemplate using that technique which would seem far too fiddly to do in the air. For me typing the three letter description on top of the replaced turnpoint is easy and not fiddly. The same system works for replacing or adding. The screen keyboard is large - so long as you have a 5 inch screen. The ways to do it in WP and SYM are almost the same. Touching the screen near where you want to go to and touching GOTO also sounds like a very easy way to navigate somewhere, as you can do in SYM pan mode.

On Saturday, October 6, 2012 2:29:22 PM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
On Saturday, October 6, 2012 1:44:17 AM UTC+1, jfitch wrote:



The method you describe only appends a turnpoint to the end . I did find I could change a turnpoint by MenuTaskToolsMapselect zoom(guess what zoom you need and click on i)t(click and drag turnpoint to new location)OK. That's only 8 clicks, certainly better than adding the new and deleting the old from the list which takes around 15 clicks minimum. Typing in the name of the waypoint is *really* a poor way of doing it.





Strange how people differ. I would not contemplate using that technique which would seem far too fiddly to do in the air. For me typing the three letter description on top of the replaced turnpoint is easy and not fiddly. The same system works for replacing or adding. The screen keyboard is large - so long as you have a 5 inch screen. The ways to do it in WP and SYM are almost the same. Touching the screen near where you want to go to and touching GOTO also sounds like a very easy way to navigate somewhere, as you can do in SYM pan mode.

I suppose it does depend. I fly over a large area (roughly 50,000 sq miles), current turnpoint database has something like 140 turnpoints. I have no idea what some of them even are, how they were entered, how spelled, etc. - all a prerequisite to typing them in!

On Sunday, October 7, 2012 12:40:48 AM UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
On Saturday, October 6, 2012 2:29:22 PM UTC-7, waremark wrote:

On Saturday, October 6, 2012 1:44:17 AM UTC+1, jfitch wrote:







The method you describe only appends a turnpoint to the end . I did find I could change a turnpoint by MenuTaskToolsMapselect zoom(guess what zoom you need and click on i)t(click and drag turnpoint to new location)OK. That's only 8 clicks, certainly better than adding the new and deleting the old from the list which takes around 15 clicks minimum. Typing in the name of the waypoint is *really* a poor way of doing it.











Strange how people differ. I would not contemplate using that technique which would seem far too fiddly to do in the air. For me typing the three letter description on top of the replaced turnpoint is easy and not fiddly. The same system works for replacing or adding. The screen keyboard is large - so long as you have a 5 inch screen. The ways to do it in WP and SYM are almost the same. Touching the screen near where you want to go to and touching GOTO also sounds like a very easy way to navigate somewhere, as you can do in SYM pan mode.



I suppose it does depend. I fly over a large area (roughly 50,000 sq miles), current turnpoint database has something like 140 turnpoints. I have no idea what some of them even are, how they were entered, how spelled, etc.. - all a prerequisite to typing them in!

I fly in the UK; I have the full British Gliding Association turnpoint list of 1,200 turnpoints loaded. I have them formatted to use the BGA three letter code as the first three characters of the name, and I show those first three characters on the map - and I would input those characters when I want to change/insert/goto a different turnpoint.

On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:23:14 PM UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, October 5, 2012 8:04:55 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:

On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:56:22 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:







This is also why I am concerned about it taking 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. In terms of eyes-in-the-cockpit, that is a much more serious situation, requiring maybe 30 seconds of concentrated effort - vs. 3 seconds or so for the better products.







Please explain how it takes you 9+ button pushes to change a turn point.. Are you talking about making a task change inflight? That takes 8 total from map to map, to change or add a tp in a task. Or are you talking about selecting a new tp to steer to? That takes 3 actions. SYM is not the best, but it's not bad either.







Kirk



I am talking about an in-flight addition or replacement of turnpoint in a task. When I do it in SYM it takes 9 plus however much scrolling is involved in finding the turn point. Maybe there is an easier way than the ones I have figured out? MenuTask(select where or what you want to changeInsert...(scroll to turnpointhiglightSelectOkOk - 9+, isn't it? This is the worst of the programs I have actually tried in flight. A few of the buttons are small and hard to hit in turbulence, for example the ellipsis (...).. Even just deleting a point is 7 buttons.



I don't think I have counted them up on XCSoar. WP is 4+ and less fiddly buttons too. iGlide is one!

I agree that the ease of doing these things is vital. SYM and WP are both very good.

Sounds like you should read the manual. It seems a very bad idea to scroll a list in flight.

Assign Menu/Task to one of your navboxes, that way it is one touch to get to the Task page. Touch the waypoint you want to change, then touch KEYB. Enter the first three letters of the new waypoint using the big keyboard, OK, OK.

One more keystroke than WP so far as I am concerned.

Or do it on the map page. Touch the map near the desired waypoint (pan if necessary) - brings up a waypoint list with the nearest at the top. Touch Goto. You are going to it (OK, that has not inserted it to the task).

How can iGlide do it in a single touch? (I lost interest in iGlide because I only knew it ran on iPhone/iPad, one too big, the other too small, and neither bright enough - what do you run it on?).

On Saturday, October 6, 2012 12:09:48 AM UTC+1, waremark wrote:
On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:23:14 PM UTC+1, jfitch wrote:

On Friday, October 5, 2012 8:04:55 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:



On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:56:22 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:















This is also why I am concerned about it taking 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. In terms of eyes-in-the-cockpit, that is a much more serious situation, requiring maybe 30 seconds of concentrated effort - vs. 3 seconds or so for the better products.















Please explain how it takes you 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. Are you talking about making a task change inflight? That takes 8 total from map to map, to change or add a tp in a task. Or are you talking about selecting a new tp to steer to? That takes 3 actions. SYM is not the best, but it's not bad either.















Kirk







I am talking about an in-flight addition or replacement of turnpoint in a task. When I do it in SYM it takes 9 plus however much scrolling is involved in finding the turn point. Maybe there is an easier way than the ones I have figured out? MenuTask(select where or what you want to changeInsert...(scroll to turnpointhiglightSelectOkOk - 9+, isn't it? This is the worst of the programs I have actually tried in flight. A few of the buttons are small and hard to hit in turbulence, for example the ellipsis (....). Even just deleting a point is 7 buttons.







I don't think I have counted them up on XCSoar. WP is 4+ and less fiddly buttons too. iGlide is one!



I agree that the ease of doing these things is vital. SYM and WP are both very good.



Sounds like you should read the manual. It seems a very bad idea to scroll a list in flight.



Assign Menu/Task to one of your navboxes, that way it is one touch to get to the Task page. Touch the waypoint you want to change, then touch KEYB. Enter the first three letters of the new waypoint using the big keyboard, OK, OK.



One more keystroke than WP so far as I am concerned.



Or do it on the map page. Touch the map near the desired waypoint (pan if necessary) - brings up a waypoint list with the nearest at the top. Touch Goto. You are going to it (OK, that has not inserted it to the task).



How can iGlide do it in a single touch? (I lost interest in iGlide because I only knew it ran on iPhone/iPad, one too big, the other too small, and neither bright enough - what do you run it on?).

PS Further way of doing it in SYM - drag your finger on the map in the desired direction (not on the glider symbol which moves the map), brings up a list of waypoints in that direction, touch one you want and touch GOTO.

PS again - if you really want to insert an additional waypoint in the Task page, touch Task (on the Navbox to which you have assigned this action)/Tools/Insert/Ok to insert a blank waypoint, touch that waypoint in the task list and then Keyb to change the blank waypoint to one you want.

I really don't find a material change between WP and SYM (I fly with both).