P-51's in movie "Empire of the Sun"

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:10:07 -0500, Stephen Harding wrote:
Cub Driver wrote:

Great movie, by the way--Empire of the Sun, I mean. But did you notice
that the entire tail section of the "Zero" turned? Probably it was an
AT-6 with a pointy tail cone pasted on.

This makes me wonder just what sort of "modifications" are
typically done by Hollywood to create actual flying aircraft
no longer in existence, or just not available to fly.

Obviously, the main "trick" is simply paint the aircraft in
the correct national markings. Thus a P-51 becomes an Me 109,
an AT-6 a Zero (seems the most common role for a Texan in a
movie). Some F-86s can become "Migs", and I vaguely recall
a C-47 becoming a G4M Betty at one time.

The most famous modified aircraft of this type are probably the
faux Japanese aircraft used to film the 1970 movie "Tora, Tora,
Tora!" I recently saw the movie again on cable, and it looked
to me like pretty much all of the flying sequences used real
aircraft (as opposed to models -- CGI animation obviously
wasn't a possibility in the late Sixties.)

According to the web page of the Commemorative (nee Confederate)
Air Force's Gulf Coast Wing [1], which owns and operates 14 of the
aircraft that were used to film the movie, the Zeros were modified
AT-6 Texans, the Val dive bombers were modified BT-13 Valiants,
and the Kate torpedo bombers were combinations of AT-6 and BT-13
components "with lots of stretching and modifying both types."

The web page also mentions that the CAF is currently modifying
another AT-6 to look like a Zero to add to their airshow act.

... Addition of a tail cone to make an AT-6 into a Zero
seems more than necessary, but some directors are detail
focused.

The "Tora, Tora, Tora!" AT-6s were modified to change the
general shape of the wingtips and tail surfaces to match
the Zero's silhouette, and were fitted with replacement
canopies (the T-6 canopy looks nothing like a Zero's.)

On the other hand, some movie directors don't really care --
see, for example, "Iron Eagle II", which gets points for
using real aircraft and air-to-air photography, but loses
them big time for painting red stars on Israeli Air Force
F-4 Phantoms and calling them "MiG"s.

I think the BoB TV movie "Piece of Cake" used some dummied up
Spits for ground scenes as well. Didn't some
of them spin props too?

"Tora, Tora, Tora!" features a number of P-40s and PBYs
getting blowed up good on the ground during the attack.
I assume the P-40s were mockups. Dunno about the PBYs -
it might have been cheaper and easier to use real junked
PBYs from some boneyard somewhere than to build full-sized
mockups.

Of course with the increasing power of F/X in movies, you can
now film formations worth of Me 262s attacking B-24s or
whatever. The need for the actual warbird is pretty much gone.

Maybe, maybe not. The CGI animated flying sequences in
"Pearl Harbor" look pretty lame compared to the flying
sequences in "Tora, Tora, Tora!" While it's true that
you'd have no other choice than CGI if you had to have
a scene that showed large formations of B-17s and German
fighters all at once, real aircraft and air-to-air photography
still give you better looking footage (in my opinion, anyway.)

CGI sequences aren't cost-free, either. Look at "Pearl Harbor" --
they could have used CGI to produce realistic WWII destroyers being
bombed at anchor, but instead opted to set off a bunch of pyro effects
on the decks of several real decommissioned Spruance-class destroyers.


ljd

[1] http://www.gulfcoastwing.org/torapage.htm

Maybe, maybe not. The CGI animated flying sequences in
"Pearl Harbor" look pretty lame compared to the flying
sequences in "Tora, Tora, Tora!"

That's certainly my feeling. When I see a contemporary movie (Saving
Private Ryan, Windtalkers, Hamburger Hill?, even Pearl Harbor) and
watch the fighters come buzzing in, I feel as though I had been
transported into Flight Simulator. They just don't look real. Pearl
Harbor did a pretty good job with this, because in each case I think
there was an actual plane, which was multiplied by computer tricks.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

On the other hand, some movie directors don't really care --

The director of "Midway" for example. Too many bloopers to mention.

For example: Ensign Gay shown flying an SB2U *Dive* bomber, not a
TBD *torpedo* bomber; but when he was shot down, it miraculously
turned into an F6F.

Charleton Heston's kid flies an F4F but lands (badly) an F6F.

Etcetera Etcetera Etcetera.

vince norris

"Tora, Tora, Tora!" features a number of P-40s and PBYs
getting blowed up good on the ground during the attack.
I assume the P-40s were mockups. Dunno about the PBYs -
it might have been cheaper and easier to use real junked
PBYs from some boneyard somewhere than to build full-sized
mockups.

The P-40s were mock ups. If you look real closely at several that explode you
will see the fiberglass skin come off revealing a steel tube fuselage. Sadly,
the PBYs were genuine and original flying boat variants as well. There are now
probably only three or four flying boat versions left as opposed to the A for
amphibian variant.

John Dupre'

..... as opposed to the A for amphibian variant.

I had never heard that. I thought the "A" merely meant the first mod
of the "5" model. Do you mean, literally, the A stood for
"amphibian"?

vince norris

In article ,
vincent p. norris writes:
..... as opposed to the A for amphibian variant.

I had never heard that. I thought the "A" merely meant the first mod
of the "5" model. Do you mean, literally, the A stood for
"amphibian"?

Well, since it's the Navy, and they couldn'b be like abyone else, it's
one of those "That Depends" things again.

For example, the Amphibian models of the PBY and PBM flying boats were
the PBY-5A and the PBM-5A.

But the F4U-1 Corsair with the bulged canopy was an F4U-1A.
(And the version with 4 cannons was an F4U-1D).

An uprated engine was usually signified by an 'F' tacked on, but not
always.

Fighter Bombers got a 'B' for a suffix.
Radar carrying airplanes gor an 'E'.
Night Fighters/Bombers got an 'N'.
ASW airplanes got an 'S'.
Elint airplanes got a 'Q'.

But it wasn't always consistant. An F6F-5E was a Night Fighter, and
an PBM-3E was an ASW Patrol Bomber.


--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Fighter Bombers got a 'B' for a suffix.
Radar carrying airplanes gor an 'E'.
Night Fighters/Bombers got an 'N'.
ASW airplanes got an 'S'.
Elint airplanes got a 'Q'.

But it wasn't always consistant. An F6F-5E was a Night Fighter, and
an PBM-3E was an ASW Patrol Bomber.

No wonder McNamara decided to take this problem in hand!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

In article ,
Cub Driver writes:

Fighter Bombers got a 'B' for a suffix.
Radar carrying airplanes gor an 'E'.
Night Fighters/Bombers got an 'N'.
ASW airplanes got an 'S'.
Elint airplanes got a 'Q'.

But it wasn't always consistant. An F6F-5E was a Night Fighter, and
an PBM-3E was an ASW Patrol Bomber.

No wonder McNamara decided to take this problem in hand!

Legend has it that the Great Designation MacNafit took place after
he'd gone in fromt of Congress to tout the various merits of the C-130
over teh Marine Corps GV-1. He rattled on for an hour or so, until
somebody pointed out to him that they were the same airplane. (ANd I
wonder the the USCG's R8V-1 came in as well). Since he hated to be
humiliated, especially by himself, (and he does have a lot to be
humble about) he decreed that the designation systems be merged, so
that he couldn't do it again. (Or you can substitute the F4H/F-110 if
you'd rather.) It's a great story, but I'm sure rality is somewhat
different, (and a lot more dull)

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Well, since it's the Navy, and they couldn'b be like abyone else, it's
one of those "That Depends" things again.

For example, the Amphibian models of the PBY and PBM flying boats were
the PBY-5A and the PBM-5A.

But the F4U-1 Corsair with the bulged canopy was an F4U-1A.
(And the version with 4 cannons was an F4U-1D).

But weren't the letters A, B, C. D, assigned in alphabetical order, to
successive mods?

An uprated engine was usually signified by an 'F' tacked on, but not
always.

Even if the preceding mod was an A or a B? Are you saying the Navy
jumped over the C, D, and E? What if the preceding mod was up to G,
or H; did they go back to F?

But it wasn't always consistant. An F6F-5E was a Night Fighter,

Was that not because the preceding mod was the F6F-5D?

and an PBM-3E was an ASW Patrol Bomber.

And did that follow the PBM-3D?

Thanks. vince norris

In article ,
vincent p. norris writes:
Well, since it's the Navy, and they couldn'b be like abyone else, it's
one of those "That Depends" things again.

For example, the Amphibian models of the PBY and PBM flying boats were
the PBY-5A and the PBM-5A.

But the F4U-1 Corsair with the bulged canopy was an F4U-1A.
(And the version with 4 cannons was an F4U-1D).

But weren't the letters A, B, C. D, assigned in alphabetical order, to
successive mods?

Not for the Navy, no. (They always have to be different. Decks, not
floors, Overheads, not ceilings. Bulkheads, not walls, Covers
instead of hats. Plentiful coffee, though.)


An uprated engine was usually signified by an 'F' tacked on, but not
always.

Even if the preceding mod was an A or a B? Are you saying the Navy
jumped over the C, D, and E? What if the preceding mod was up to G,
or H; did they go back to F?

Yep. A good example would be the F11F-1 Tiger jet fighter. WHen
Grummand replaced the original J65 with a J79, the result was teh
F11F-1F. The letter represented a specific type of modification.
'B' in the series, for example, denoted a FIghter-Bomber. For
example, the Navy's Fury series of jet fighters ran through the
following sequence -
FJ-1 The original Fury, a straight wing jet.
FJ-2 Basically a minimum-change carrier-capable (barely) version
of the F-86.
FJ-3 A complete restringing of teh FJ-2 to use a J65 engine, and
have better carrier compatibility.
FJ-3M Were FJ-3s modified to carry a pair of Sidewinders. (M for
Missile)
FJ-3D Were FJ-3s that carried Drone Director equipment. They
acted as initial guidance for Regulus cruise missiles.
FJ-4 A completely new aircraft, thinner wing, lots more fuel.
FJ-4B Fighter-Bomber/Light Attack version of teh FJ-4. A
competitor to the A4D Skyhawk.

Note that there are 3 suffix letters used: 'B' for Bomber, 'M' for
Missile, and 'D' for Drone Director.
ANd that the basic FJ designation described 3 (or 4, depending on your
point of view) completely different airframes.
To make matters worse, all FJ-4s were capable of carrying Sidewinders.


But it wasn't always consistant. An F6F-5E was a Night Fighter,

Was that not because the preceding mod was the F6F-5D?

Nope, it was becasue it had an APS-4 radar in a wingtip pod.

And the followon was the F6F-6N, with an APS-6 radar.

and an PBM-3E was an ASW Patrol Bomber.

And did that follow the PBM-3D?

No. Acutally, I goofed on the PBM-3. There wasn't a PBM-3E.
There were, however, the:
PBM-3R, a transport conversion
PBM-3C With standardized USN/Brit communications gear
PBM-3D With uprated armament adn armor
PBM-3S A dedicated ASW version.
(Note that the -3C, -3D, and -S all carried radar)

The came the PBM-5. The flavors for that one we
PBM-5
PBM-5E A PBM-5 with APS-15 radar.
PBM-5S A dedicated ASW PBM-5E
PBM-5A an Amphibian PBM-5
PBM-5G PBM-5 used by the Coast Guard for Search and Rescue.

Ah, I just dug up my list of Special Puropse Suffixes.
Suffix Possible Meaning
Letter
A Miscellaneous Modification
A Armament carried on a normally unarmed aircraft
A Arrester geat carried on a normally non-carrier
aircraft
A Built for the Army or obtained from the Army
A Amphibious Version of Flying Boat
A Land based version of a carrier aircraft
B Miscellaneous Modification
B Special Armament (As in bombs)
B British version
C Arrester gear added
C Reinforced for catapulting
C Cannon Armament
C Navy equivalent of Army 'C' series modification
CP Trimetrogon Camera
D Drop tanks
D Drone COntrol
D Navy equivalent of Army 'D' series modification
D Special Search
D Special Radar
E Special Electronic Equipment
F Flagship conversion (VIP transport)
F Special power plant
G Search and Rescue
G Coast Guard
G Gun carried on normally unarmed aircraft
G Navy equivaleant of Army 'G' series modification
H Hospital conversion (Air Ambulance)
H Navy equivalant of Army 'H' series mod.
J Special weather equioment
J Navy equivalent of Army 'J' series mod.
K Drone conversion
L Winterized
L Searchlight carrier
M Missile carrier
N Night Fighter
N All Weather aircraft
NA Night/All Weather aircraft stripped for day use
NL Night, Winterized
P Photo Recon
Q Elint/ECM
R Transport conversion
S ASW
T Trainer version
U Utility version
W Special search equipment
W Early Warning Radar aircraft
Z vip TRANSPORT

sIMPLE, HUH?

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster