~ Bush: "I'm God's Delivery Boy" ~

" wrote:

Guy Alcala wrote:

WalterM140 wrote:

Separation of church and state, anyone?

The president doesn't speak for the state in the same way that the Queen of
England does, for instance.

Lincoln quotes snipped

The framers wanted Americans to have freedom -of- religion, not freedom -from-
religion.

In order to have freedom -of- religion, one must also have the option of freedom
-from- religion, or no freedom exists.

Guy (a life-long agnostic)

That's akin to saying that freedom doesn't exist unless everyone
is free to do whatever they wish. I don't think that I'd like to
live in a country where that was the case, would you?.
--

-Gord.

It's saying nothing of the sort, Gord. If I am not free to _not_ profess a religion,
then I lack freedom of religion. If I am not guaranteed freedom from religion if I
so choose, then you are implying that the Constitution requires me to profess one.
That being the case, am I to be assigned a religion, since I don't have religious
beliefs? And who makes the decision which religion is acceptable for me? The
Government? No, they can't do that, that would run afoul of the 1st Amendment. Can
I be denied civil rights and be treated as a second class citizen? Nope, 14th
Amendment. But see my piggy-backed reply on Ed's post, as the author quoted therein
put the matter far better than I ever could.

Guy

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
" wrote:

Guy Alcala wrote:

WalterM140 wrote:

Separation of church and state, anyone?

The president doesn't speak for the state in the same way that the
Queen of
England does, for instance.

Lincoln quotes snipped

The framers wanted Americans to have freedom -of- religion, not
freedom -from-
religion.

In order to have freedom -of- religion, one must also have the option
of freedom
-from- religion, or no freedom exists.

Guy (a life-long agnostic)

That's akin to saying that freedom doesn't exist unless everyone
is free to do whatever they wish. I don't think that I'd like to
live in a country where that was the case, would you?.
--

-Gord.

It's saying nothing of the sort, Gord. If I am not free to _not_ profess
a religion,
then I lack freedom of religion. If I am not guaranteed freedom from
religion if I
so choose, then you are implying that the Constitution requires me to
profess one.

The Constitution guarantees the "free expression thereof" and what you are
claiming as a right is the repression of the constitutional rights of
others, Guy.

That being the case, am I to be assigned a religion, since I don't have
religious
beliefs? And who makes the decision which religion is acceptable for me?
The
Government?

No, but you do have to put up with "the free exercise thereof".

No, they can't do that, that would run afoul of the 1st Amendment.

No, you have run afoul of the first Amendment.


Can
I be denied civil rights and be treated as a second class citizen?

It is you that is attacking the civil rights of others, Guy.


Nope, 14th
Amendment. But see my piggy-backed reply on Ed's post, as the author
quoted therein
put the matter far better than I ever could.

Ed is pretty funny.

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Tarver
Engineering" confessed the following:

The Constitution guarantees the "free expression thereof" and what you are
claiming as a right is the repression of the constitutional rights of
others, Guy.

You are one seriously f*cked up dude. You have the right to watch gay
porn...I have the right NOT to watch. You have the right to worship as
you choose...I have the right NOT to worship.

It is you that is attacking the civil rights of others, Guy.

It bears repeating...you are one seriously f*cked up dude. Funny, but
mo' debly f*cked up.

Juvat

"Robey Price" wrote in message
...
After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Tarver
Engineering" confessed the following:

The Constitution guarantees the "free expression thereof" and what you
are
claiming as a right is the repression of the constitutional rights of
others, Guy.

You are one seriously f*cked up dude. You have the right to watch gay
porn...I have the right NOT to watch. You have the right to worship as
you choose...I have the right NOT to worship.

But you have no right to interfere in the "free exercise thereof" WRT
religion. Your gay tendancies are of no interest to me.

It is you that is attacking the civil rights of others, Guy.

It bears repeating...you are one seriously f*cked up dude. Funny, but
mo' debly f*cked up.

Geological evidence indicates that if evolution occurs at all it must do so
within a single generation, completely falsifying the entire notion of a
slow emergence of a new species over time.

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Tarver
Engineering" confessed the following:

But you have no right to interfere in the "free exercise thereof" WRT
religion.

I'm not...Guy's not...believe what you want, worship as you want. Be
my guest. My lack of faith, my desire to be free from religion,
doesn't interfere with you right to worship.

JT you're just being silly.

Your gay tendancies are of no interest to me.

Actually that'd be your gay tendencies...and that's okay with me too.
Whatever you do with another consenting adult is your business.

Geological evidence indicates that if evolution occurs at all it must do so
within a single generation, completely falsifying the entire notion of a
slow emergence of a new species over time.

What's it gonna be JT. Stop waffling and pick a position. "If"
evolution occurs?

You've already told us evolution has been discredited by Einstein (the
gentleman of Quantum physics and relativity) now you're suggesting
there may be something to, as you called it, "dog breeder science."

You're just being silly. I could care less if you choose Dawkins or
Gould, they disagree about the details of evolution, but they both
support evolution over creationism. I have no problem with that. Those
differing opinions are interesting, but I don't care about the
specifics. There is so much out there I find more interesting and the
autodidact in me has a limited amount of time to spend on "finding
things out."

Which all goes back to the point, your religious beliefs are your
beliefs. I don't want to take those away from you or anybody. Trying
to transform this great country into some christian state would be as
dangerous to the world as a proliferation of islamist states. So keep
religion out of government.

Juvat

"Robey Price" wrote in message
...
After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Tarver
Engineering" confessed the following:

But you have no right to interfere in the "free exercise thereof" WRT
religion.

I'm not...Guy's not...believe what you want, worship as you want. Be
my guest. My lack of faith, my desire to be free from religion,
doesn't interfere with you right to worship.

JT you're just being silly.

Sure, but I made you laugh.

Your gay tendancies are of no interest to me.

Actually that'd be your gay tendencies...and that's okay with me too.
Whatever you do with another consenting adult is your business.

Such projection.

Geological evidence indicates that if evolution occurs at all it must do
so
within a single generation, completely falsifying the entire notion of a
slow emergence of a new species over time.

What's it gonna be JT. Stop waffling and pick a position. "If"
evolution occurs?

Hey, I'm just presenting science.

You've already told us evolution has been discredited by Einstein (the
gentleman of Quantum physics and relativity) now you're suggesting
there may be something to, as you called it, "dog breeder science."

No, I am pointing out that the notional hypothesis of species occuring over
a long peoriod of natural selection is disputed by physical geological
evidence. The quantum physics stuff is just experimenatally demonstrable
and repeatable.

You're just being silly. I could care less if you choose Dawkins or
Gould, they disagree about the details of evolution, but they both
support evolution over creationism. I have no problem with that. Those
differing opinions are interesting, but I don't care about the
specifics. There is so much out there I find more interesting and the
autodidact in me has a limited amount of time to spend on "finding
things out."

Fast evolution rapidly approaches creation, to a casual observer.

Jay Gould believes in God now.

Which all goes back to the point, your religious beliefs are your
beliefs. I don't want to take those away from you or anybody. Trying
to transform this great country into some christian state would be as
dangerous to the world as a proliferation of islamist states. So keep
religion out of government.

I am not posting religion, you are.

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Tarver
Engineering" confessed the following:

Hey, I'm just presenting science.

According to Michael Denton?

You've already told us evolution has been discredited by Einstein (the
gentleman of Quantum physics and relativity) now you're suggesting
there may be something to, as you called it, "dog breeder science."

No, I am pointing out that the notional hypothesis of species occuring over
a long peoriod of natural selection is disputed by physical geological
evidence.

This is a hoot!

Too funny, this is actually hilarious. You are summarizing part of
Gould's position between Punctuated Equilibrium and his concept of
"phyletic gradualism."

Apparently you think the crux of evolution is "the notional hypothesis
of species occuring over a long period of natural selection." I'm
guessing your emphasis in "long period." That would only be an
aspect/theory of a mechanism of evolution, but...evolution is still a
fact.

Fast evolution rapidly approaches creation, to a casual observer.

Fast evolution? You mean Gould's & Eldredge's Punctuated Equilibrium
that:

PE postulates that speciation events comprise most of the evolutionary
change seen in adaptation.

PE explains the abrupt appearance of new species in the fossil record.

PE explains the relative stasis of most species.

PE asserts "species selection" as the way in which major adaptive
trends proceed.

PE also makes a statement concerning the pattern of fossils found.

Jay Gould believes in God now.

Too funny, sounds like you believe in Jay Gould and Punctuated
Equilibrium.

I am not posting religion, you are.

Well alert your ISP 'cause somebody posting with your IP adress
asserted in this thread that society without religion leads to
psycosis; and our (Guy and me) freedom FROM religion in the US is a
violation of the 1st Amendment rights of believers.

Juvat