P-51's in movie "Empire of the Sun"

We were at 5 feet. They never saw us. Hope we have better anti-mining
techniques now than we had then. Scary. If we could do that in barely 200+ kt
prop planes on a clear day with defense given time of arrival and looking for
us visually, what could the bad guys do on a dark and stormy night? Scary.

Quent (VP 29)

See my question to Gord about ground effect. Is it really there, as a
cushion, or is that a myth?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

In article ,
Cub Driver wrote:


See my question to Gord about ground effect. Is it really there, as a
cushion, or is that a myth?

Ground effect is a reduction in drag....not a "cushion" the repels you
from the earth.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

See my question to Gord about ground effect. Is it really there, as a
cushion, or is that a myth?

absolutely, it is there. get down low enough over flat seas and you can feel
'something', akin to being on a down bed, held over a hard bed.

G

In article ,
nt (Krztalizer) writes:

See my question to Gord about ground effect. Is it really there, as a
cushion, or is that a myth?

absolutely, it is there. get down low enough over flat seas and you can feel
'something', akin to being on a down bed, held over a hard bed.

Yabbut - Helicopters are _different_. (And the Navy, of course has to
be different, too, so Navy Helicopters are _very_ different)
In the case of a Fixed-Wing Aircraft, proximity to the ground kills
off the wingtip vortices, In Helicopters (Hmm... If Airplanes are
Fixed Wing Aircraft, I guess that means Helicopters are Broken Wing
Aircraft), you're either piling up the rotor wash faster than it can
run away, or the Earth is vastry increasing its repulsion of the noisy
beast in a last-ditch effort to keep it from marring the ground.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Yabbut - Helicopters are _different_. (And the Navy, of course has to
be different, too, so Navy Helicopters are _very_ different)

Different, as in similar but not quite the same, or Different as in NQR?

In Helicopters you're either piling up the rotor wash faster than it can
run away,

That's the current theory.

or the Earth is vastry increasing its repulsion of the noisy
beast in a last-ditch effort to keep it from marring the ground.

That's the only current competing theory.
Having seen more than my share of between-the-wars European bomber designs, I
KNOW UGLY. Hell, if the earth repelled ugly designs, Brequet would hold all of
the endurance flight records.

Helicopters do not marr the ground with their visual presence - they are simply
generators for localized disruptions of the normal laws of physics.

v/r
Gordon

Choppers are known as rotary wing a/c, and ordinary a/c are known as fixed
wing a/c.
"Peter Stickney" wrote in message
news
In article ,
nt (Krztalizer) writes:

See my question to Gord about ground effect. Is it really there, as a
cushion, or is that a myth?

absolutely, it is there. get down low enough over flat seas and you can
feel
'something', akin to being on a down bed, held over a hard bed.

Yabbut - Helicopters are _different_. (And the Navy, of course has to
be different, too, so Navy Helicopters are _very_ different)
In the case of a Fixed-Wing Aircraft, proximity to the ground kills
off the wingtip vortices, In Helicopters (Hmm... If Airplanes are
Fixed Wing Aircraft, I guess that means Helicopters are Broken Wing
Aircraft), you're either piling up the rotor wash faster than it can
run away, or the Earth is vastry increasing its repulsion of the noisy
beast in a last-ditch effort to keep it from marring the ground.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Choppers are known as rotary wing a/c, and ordinary a/c are known as fixed
wing a/c.

Some of us know them helicopters and airplanes, respectively.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

he he he! thanks mate!
"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

Choppers are known as rotary wing a/c, and ordinary a/c are known as
fixed
wing a/c.

Some of us know them helicopters and airplanes, respectively.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Dan Ford wrote in part:
See my question to Gord about ground effect. Is it really there, as a cushion,
or is that a myth?

Probably a reality, but I don't recall noticing it in teh exercise mentioned.
Did have a friend who lost an engine in a P2V about half way to Hawaii.
Officially, too heavy to stay airborne, dump enough fuel to be light enough to
stay airborne, and one hasn't enough fuel to reach land. Double bind.
(It has ben suggested that is why Lindbergh elected a single engine plane.
With the engines available, if he had two and lost one -- splash. If he had
one and lost one -- splash. But the chances of losing an engine in a single
engine plane are half those of a twin.)
They went down to zero altitude --ground effect max -- went through plane with
bolt cutters dumping everything dumpable. They spent about 4 hours with one
mill feathered and the other operating beyond all redlines. Arriving at
Barbers Point (?) there was no "letting down" to a landing. They simply
lowered the gear onto the runway. Whew!

Quent

"QDurham" wrote in message
...
| Dan Ford wrote in part:
| See my question to Gord about ground effect. Is it really there, as a
cushion,
| or is that a myth?
|
| Probably a reality, but I don't recall noticing it in teh exercise
mentioned.
| Did have a friend who lost an engine in a P2V about half way to Hawaii.
| Officially, too heavy to stay airborne, dump enough fuel to be light
enough to
| stay airborne, and one hasn't enough fuel to reach land. Double bind.
| (It has ben suggested that is why Lindbergh elected a single engine plane.
| With the engines available, if he had two and lost one -- splash. If he
had
| one and lost one -- splash. But the chances of losing an engine in a
single
| engine plane are half those of a twin.)
| They went down to zero altitude --ground effect max -- went through plane
with
| bolt cutters dumping everything dumpable. They spent about 4 hours with
one
| mill feathered and the other operating beyond all redlines. Arriving at
| Barbers Point (?) there was no "letting down" to a landing. They simply
| lowered the gear onto the runway. Whew!
|
| Quent
|
|


Another example would be the Singapore Airlines 747-400 that had the tail
strike at Auckland a year ago. Pilot and 1st officer screwed up on
the load sheet (long story) and fed the numbers into the computer 100 tonnes
short.


As the plane was racing towards the end of the runway and still not taking
off, the pilot hauled back further on the stick - without advancing the
throttles. Tail drags for 400m while the plane accelerates _very_
slowly.

Eventually they lift off just before the end of the concrete - at something
like 168 knots, which for that configuration, was 3-5 knots under their
stall speed. Such is the value of ground effect.


On another note ....

Helos also come with 2 max hovering altitudes - in ground effect and out of
ground effect.



Cheers


Dave Kearton