U.S. glider operations fuel prices

On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 12:12:23 PM UTC-7, aerodyne wrote:
Using the Pawnee as an example, operating costs are only driven partly

by fuel, if fuel was 12/gal vs 6/gal, tow costs would not double, but

increase by 30-50%.

That's direct fuel cost. The non-fuel costs are also driven by the price of fuel - but indirectly as pass thru.

That's direct fuel cost. *The non-fuel costs are also driven by the price of fuel - but indirectly as pass thru.

OK - so the Pawnee D does not have the STC - what about all the
earlier models made 20 years or so prior? The bulk of the fleet I'd
wager.

Insurance, maintenance, and hanger rent driven proportionaly by fuel
cost? I doubt that. Show me the numbers!

On Nov 20, 2:25*pm, aerodyne wrote:
That's direct fuel cost. *The non-fuel costs are also driven by the price of fuel - but indirectly as pass thru.

OK - so the Pawnee D does not have the STC - what about all the
earlier models made 20 years or so prior? *The bulk of the fleet I'd
wager.

Insurance, maintenance, and hanger rent driven proportionaly by fuel
cost? *I doubt that. *Show me the numbers!

Re Numbers:
Yesterday in NV, mom & pop commercial FBO. One of ths launches in 15kt
wind to 1,900 ft agl, ASK21, two pilots, one winch driver, (busy
grandmother of 12), one $10,000 winch, 28 ounces of premium gas equals
$1 fuel costs. (And who needs a wing runner on a paved runway?) Get
with the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the
1930's. The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport.
Karen Henderson.

On Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC+1, Karen wrote:
Get with the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the 1930's. The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport. Karen Henderson.

Karen, the US has been doing it since the 1930s, too. And not all German clubs use a winch - I visited a nice soaring club near Aachen a week ago (they were flying everything from a DG-1000 to an open cockpit oldie) that has too short runways to consider a winch - the price of land would never make it economical. We have almost the same problem at our club here in St Louis - we own a big grass strip, perfect for aerotowing, but at 2700' just a bit too short for "get away" winching - and we have roads at both ends preventing extending much more.

It's a nice option, though. Fun, too! If you can do it, go for it!

But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch...

Kirk
66

On Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:58:59 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC+1, Karen wrote: Get with the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the 1930's. The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport. Karen Henderson. Karen, the US has been doing it since the 1930s, too. And not all German clubs use a winch - I visited a nice soaring club near Aachen a week ago (they were flying everything from a DG-1000 to an open cockpit oldie) that has too short runways to consider a winch - the price of land would never make it economical. We have almost the same problem at our club here in St Louis - we own a big grass strip, perfect for aerotowing, but at 2700' just a bit too short for "get away" winching - and we have roads at both ends preventing extending much more. It's a nice option, though. Fun, too! If you can do it, go for it! But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch... Kirk 66

Kirk, you may be right - there are a handfull of clubs in Germany which do not use a winch due to space constraints but out of about 900 active clubs reported by the DAeC, that is a negligble number. Tha vast majority uses winching as their main launch method due to cost reasons - mainly due to high fuel cost over there.
But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch...
Oh really?? Drive one lately? ;-)

Uli

On Nov 22, 6:18*am, GM wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:58:59 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC+1, Karen wrote: Get with the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the 1930's. The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport. Karen Henderson. Karen, the oUS has been doing it since the 1930s, too. And not all German clubs use a winch - I visited a nice soaring club near Aachen a week ago (they were flying everything from a DG-1000 to an open cockpit oldie) that has too short runways to consider a winch - the price of land would never make it economical. We have almost the same problem at our club here in St Louis - we own a big grass strip, perfect for aerotowing, but at 2700' just a bit too short for "get away" winching - and we have roads at both ends preventing extending much more. It's a nice option, though. Fun, too! If you can do it, go for it! But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch... Kirk 66

Kirk, you may be right - there are a handfull of clubs in Germany which do not use a winch due to space constraints but out of about 900 active clubs reported by the DAeC, that is a negligble number. Tha vast majority uses winching as their main launch method due to cost reasons - mainly due to high fuel cost over there. But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch...

Oh really?? Drive one lately? ;-)

Uli

Land costs

We lived on the side of a hill when we bought the winch from Fault
line Flyers in TX. We leased the 13 acres from a farmer in front of
the house. Would lob my spouse into the pattern at lunch in a vintage
2-33 w/nose hook into the pattern when the turkey vultures would
appear. He soared till sunset off an 800 ft vault, land and put his a/
c away by himself. Walk back up to the house in time for dinner.
Pretty bas One other comment about these winch addicts. Living in a
tourist town, we get pilots from the soaring world all over. Unless
they are super high time glider pilots, the Europeans win hands down
every week for working weak and low lift. 757 Capt Ingo Sturhan from
Deutschland "got off" the winch launch half way down the runway and
half way up because he knew he flew through a thermal. Circled to
12,800 ft departed east for AZ and came home 4.5 hrs later. Amazing.

I drove a Pawnee yesterday (10 tows) and it is a LOT more fun than driving a
winch, which I haven't done in over 10 years. From the glider end of the
rope, however, I'd *much* rather be connected to a winch or truck (runway
length permitting, of course).


"GM" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:58:59 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC+1, Karen wrote: Get with the
program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the 1930's. The little
UK still does more flights than we do per airport. Karen Henderson. Karen,
the US has been doing it since the 1930s, too. And not all German clubs
use a winch - I visited a nice soaring club near Aachen a week ago (they
were flying everything from a DG-1000 to an open cockpit oldie) that has
too short runways to consider a winch - the price of land would never make
it economical. We have almost the same problem at our club here in St
Louis - we own a big grass strip, perfect for aerotowing, but at 2700'
just a bit too short for "get away" winching - and we have roads at both
ends preventing extending much more. It's a nice option, though. Fun, too!
If you can do it, go for it! But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than
a winch... Kirk 66

Kirk, you may be right - there are a handfull of clubs in Germany which do
not use a winch due to space constraints but out of about 900 active clubs
reported by the DAeC, that is a negligble number. Tha vast majority uses
winching as their main launch method due to cost reasons - mainly due to
high fuel cost over there.
But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch...
Oh really?? Drive one lately? ;-)

Uli

But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch... Oh really?? Drive one lately? ;-) Uli

OK, you got me, Uli - I haven't driven a winch, but have been on the other end several times (mainly in Germany) and I agree it's a lot of fun on the "pulled" end. But you will have to convince me that being at the "pulling" end (even though it must be a fun way to get your friends up in the air) of a winch is more fun than driving a big ole noisy taildragger around the sky!

Cheers!

Kirk
66

On Friday, November 23, 2012 5:38:00 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch... Oh really?? Drive one lately? ;-) Uli OK, you got me, Uli - I haven't driven a winch, but have been on the other end several times (mainly in Germany) and I agree it's a lot of fun on the "pulled" end. But you will have to convince me that being at the "pulling" end (even though it must be a fun way to get your friends up in the air) of a winch is more fun than driving a big ole noisy taildragger around the sky! Cheers! Kirk 66

Hi Kirk

we are having a ton of fun with our home-built winch here at the Carolina Soaring Association. Being in the middle of NASCAR-country, we gave ours a bit of a 'red-neck' touch! See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K26F69HdbmE
or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUL5SSZhWzA
The 'not-so-fun' part of driving a winch is when it continuesly breaks down and one has to constantly tinker with it. Properly engineered and built winches are fun to operate and - like flying the tow-plane or instructing - is a great way to give back to the club.

Safe soaring,

Uli

But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch...
Kirk

66

This is by far the main, but rarely spoken, reason for objecting to winch launch.

However, it's wrong. I've done a lot of both and I'd much rather be in a nice winch.