U.S. glider operations fuel prices

On Friday, November 23, 2012 5:38:00 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch... Oh really?? Drive one lately? ;-) Uli OK, you got me, Uli - I haven't driven a winch, but have been on the other end several times (mainly in Germany) and I agree it's a lot of fun on the "pulled" end. But you will have to convince me that being at the "pulling" end (even though it must be a fun way to get your friends up in the air) of a winch is more fun than driving a big ole noisy taildragger around the sky! Cheers! Kirk 66

Hi Kirk

we are having a ton of fun with our home-built winch here at the Carolina Soaring Association. Being in the middle of NASCAR-country, we gave ours a bit of a 'red-neck' touch! See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K26F69HdbmE
or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUL5SSZhWzA
The 'not-so-fun' part of driving a winch is when it continuesly breaks down and one has to constantly tinker with it. Properly engineered and built winches are fun to operate and - like flying the tow-plane or instructing - is a great way to give back to the club.

Safe soaring,

Uli

On Saturday, November 24, 2012 6:34:01 PM UTC-7, GM wrote:
On Friday, November 23, 2012 5:38:00 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:

But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch... Oh really?? Drive one lately? ;-) Uli OK, you got me, Uli - I haven't driven a winch, but have been on the other end several times (mainly in Germany) and I agree it's a lot of fun on the "pulled" end. But you will have to convince me that being at the "pulling" end (even though it must be a fun way to get your friends up in the air) of a winch is more fun than driving a big ole noisy taildragger around the sky! Cheers! Kirk 66



Hi Kirk



we are having a ton of fun with our home-built winch here at the Carolina Soaring Association. Being in the middle of NASCAR-country, we gave ours a bit of a 'red-neck' touch! See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K26F69HdbmE

or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUL5SSZhWzA

The 'not-so-fun' part of driving a winch is when it continuesly breaks down and one has to constantly tinker with it. Properly engineered and built winches are fun to operate and - like flying the tow-plane or instructing - is a great way to give back to the club.



Safe soaring,



Uli

I have an appreciation for the high plains of Colorado I would not have otherwise had I not spent a lot of time driving the club winch. The Larks are wonderful. The antelope are okay. The occasional badger is interesting. Then there are the soaring birds. The cougars don't appear in the day time. The occasional escaped llama provides something to chase.

As there can be a couple of wind shears between the ground and 2000agl, it's never dull. Now if more pilots would listen when I tell them to turn left at the top of the launch to catch the thermal, it would be even better. Too many turn right for the house thermal, which isn't there when it's to the left;^)

Frank

On Thursday, November 22, 2012 4:37:45 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:

This is by far the main, but rarely spoken, reason for objecting to winch launch.

However, it's wrong. I've done a lot of both and I'd much rather be in a nice winch.

Bill, my comments are in no way meant to infer that I object to winch launching - I really wish our club had room for one, and I think it is the future our sport. We need the "excitement" of winch launching to draw people into our sport, and it sure is a fun way to start a flight. That being said, I also really enjoy flying a Pawnee or a Supercub. So in my perfect world/glider club, we would have both!

Kirk
66

On Sunday, November 25, 2012 1:12:02 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 4:37:45 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:



This is by far the main, but rarely spoken, reason for objecting to winch launch.



However, it's wrong. I've done a lot of both and I'd much rather be in a nice winch.



Bill, my comments are in no way meant to infer that I object to winch launching - I really wish our club had room for one, and I think it is the future our sport. We need the "excitement" of winch launching to draw people into our sport, and it sure is a fun way to start a flight. That being said, I also really enjoy flying a Pawnee or a Supercub. So in my perfect world/glider club, we would have both!



Kirk

66

If you enjoy flying the Pawnee so much, you should volunteer to split the tow cost with the glider pilot you're towing.

On Sunday, November 25, 2012 9:31:15 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:

"If you enjoy flying the Pawnee so much, you should volunteer to split the tow cost with the glider pilot you're towing."

Since I'm a club member, and pay club dues, that's essentially what we do. And the time I spend towing is time I can't spend flying my own glider, or giving rides in club gliders, etc. So it all works out.

It's a bit more complicated when non-glider pilots are used for club tow pilots. Basically they are getting paid in flying time in interesting airplanes. Seems to work, but as our clubs chief tow pilot, I prefer using glider pilots as towpilots.

Back to winches, I've read that British clubs have had good luck with professional winch drivers, getting more consistent launches and less issues with scheduling winch drivers on good soaring days.

Kirk
66

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 15:03:08 -0800, kirk.stant wrote:

Back to winches, I've read that British clubs have had good luck with
professional winch drivers, getting more consistent launches and less
issues with scheduling winch drivers on good soaring days.

My club has both - club members on weekends and professionals during the
week when almost everybody who is on the field wants to fly. I can't say
I've noticed a huge difference in competence.

Those who've been launched a lot off Skylaunch winches say thats about
the best and that their control system adds a lot of consistency. I've
had one or two launches off them, but not enough to form an opinion. Our
own winches are Supacats and totally dependent on the driver's skill.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Sunday, November 25, 2012 4:03:09 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Sunday, November 25, 2012 9:31:15 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:



"If you enjoy flying the Pawnee so much, you should volunteer to split the tow cost with the glider pilot you're towing."



Since I'm a club member, and pay club dues, that's essentially what we do. And the time I spend towing is time I can't spend flying my own glider, or giving rides in club gliders, etc. So it all works out.

Kirk

66

Presumably, the glider pilot also pays dues so that's a wash. He also pays for the aero tow which you don't. You should split the tow fee with him since your 'hobby' is flying Pawnees.

If the winch is well designed, there is no need for a professional winch operator. In fact, I think it's dangerous to let someone operate a winch if they're not a pilot. Anyone with the talent to become a pilot can be trained to operate a winch.

Bill, you're missing the point or just messing with us tow pilots. Flying
the Pawnee is not my hobby, it's my contribution to the sport. Some people
mow the grass, some clean the club house, some instruct, some fly the tug.
I'd rather fly the tug than drive the winch since I get the "view from
above" and the challenge of landing the Pawnee in a 15 kt cross wind. On
the other hand, it's a lot easier to climb in/out of a winch, and you don't
get the excitement of having your nose pointed at the ground by some
ham-fisted wannabe.

"Bill D" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, November 25, 2012 4:03:09 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Sunday, November 25, 2012 9:31:15 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:



"If you enjoy flying the Pawnee so much, you should volunteer to split
the tow cost with the glider pilot you're towing."



Since I'm a club member, and pay club dues, that's essentially what we
do. And the time I spend towing is time I can't spend flying my own
glider, or giving rides in club gliders, etc. So it all works out.

Kirk

66

Presumably, the glider pilot also pays dues so that's a wash. He also
pays for the aero tow which you don't. You should split the tow fee with
him since your 'hobby' is flying Pawnees.

If the winch is well designed, there is no need for a professional winch
operator. In fact, I think it's dangerous to let someone operate a winch
if they're not a pilot. Anyone with the talent to become a pilot can be
trained to operate a winch.

On Sunday, November 25, 2012 5:49:47 PM UTC-6, Bill D wrote:

Presumably, the glider pilot also pays dues so that's a wash. He also pays for the aero tow which you don't. You should split the tow fee with him since your 'hobby' is flying Pawnees.

No, my "hobby" is flying gliders. I "enjoy" flying towplanes. By your logic, an airline pilot who enjoys flying his 777 should pay his passengers for giving him a job. Interesting concept, but a bit too Marxist for most of us...

I guess I owe the US citizenry a lot of cash for all the years I spent zooming around in various military aircraft!

Back to your argument that it's tow pilots that are preventing the adoption of winches at many US glider clubs - I find that a bit hard to swallow. Tow pilots don't usually run a glider club - especially if they are not also glider pilots. They may not like the idea of being replaced by a motor and some string, but as glider pilots and club members, they can recognize the financial advantages of the winch over a towplane. Our club has a mix of glider/tow pilots, and non-glider towpilots, and If we decided we could no longer afford our towplanes the non-glider pilots would simply continue with their other flying jobs.

Kirk
66

On Monday, November 26, 2012 9:55:56 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Bill, you're -snip- just messing with us tow pilots.

Of course I am.