U.S. glider operations fuel prices

On Thursday, November 22, 2012 4:37:45 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:

This is by far the main, but rarely spoken, reason for objecting to winch launch.

However, it's wrong. I've done a lot of both and I'd much rather be in a nice winch.

Bill, my comments are in no way meant to infer that I object to winch launching - I really wish our club had room for one, and I think it is the future our sport. We need the "excitement" of winch launching to draw people into our sport, and it sure is a fun way to start a flight. That being said, I also really enjoy flying a Pawnee or a Supercub. So in my perfect world/glider club, we would have both!

Kirk
66

On Sunday, November 25, 2012 1:12:02 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 4:37:45 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:



This is by far the main, but rarely spoken, reason for objecting to winch launch.



However, it's wrong. I've done a lot of both and I'd much rather be in a nice winch.



Bill, my comments are in no way meant to infer that I object to winch launching - I really wish our club had room for one, and I think it is the future our sport. We need the "excitement" of winch launching to draw people into our sport, and it sure is a fun way to start a flight. That being said, I also really enjoy flying a Pawnee or a Supercub. So in my perfect world/glider club, we would have both!



Kirk

66

If you enjoy flying the Pawnee so much, you should volunteer to split the tow cost with the glider pilot you're towing.

On Sunday, November 25, 2012 9:31:15 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:

"If you enjoy flying the Pawnee so much, you should volunteer to split the tow cost with the glider pilot you're towing."

Since I'm a club member, and pay club dues, that's essentially what we do. And the time I spend towing is time I can't spend flying my own glider, or giving rides in club gliders, etc. So it all works out.

It's a bit more complicated when non-glider pilots are used for club tow pilots. Basically they are getting paid in flying time in interesting airplanes. Seems to work, but as our clubs chief tow pilot, I prefer using glider pilots as towpilots.

Back to winches, I've read that British clubs have had good luck with professional winch drivers, getting more consistent launches and less issues with scheduling winch drivers on good soaring days.

Kirk
66

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 15:03:08 -0800, kirk.stant wrote:

Back to winches, I've read that British clubs have had good luck with
professional winch drivers, getting more consistent launches and less
issues with scheduling winch drivers on good soaring days.

My club has both - club members on weekends and professionals during the
week when almost everybody who is on the field wants to fly. I can't say
I've noticed a huge difference in competence.

Those who've been launched a lot off Skylaunch winches say thats about
the best and that their control system adds a lot of consistency. I've
had one or two launches off them, but not enough to form an opinion. Our
own winches are Supacats and totally dependent on the driver's skill.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Sunday, November 25, 2012 4:03:09 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Sunday, November 25, 2012 9:31:15 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:



"If you enjoy flying the Pawnee so much, you should volunteer to split the tow cost with the glider pilot you're towing."



Since I'm a club member, and pay club dues, that's essentially what we do. And the time I spend towing is time I can't spend flying my own glider, or giving rides in club gliders, etc. So it all works out.

Kirk

66

Presumably, the glider pilot also pays dues so that's a wash. He also pays for the aero tow which you don't. You should split the tow fee with him since your 'hobby' is flying Pawnees.

If the winch is well designed, there is no need for a professional winch operator. In fact, I think it's dangerous to let someone operate a winch if they're not a pilot. Anyone with the talent to become a pilot can be trained to operate a winch.

Bill, you're missing the point or just messing with us tow pilots. Flying
the Pawnee is not my hobby, it's my contribution to the sport. Some people
mow the grass, some clean the club house, some instruct, some fly the tug.
I'd rather fly the tug than drive the winch since I get the "view from
above" and the challenge of landing the Pawnee in a 15 kt cross wind. On
the other hand, it's a lot easier to climb in/out of a winch, and you don't
get the excitement of having your nose pointed at the ground by some
ham-fisted wannabe.

"Bill D" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, November 25, 2012 4:03:09 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
On Sunday, November 25, 2012 9:31:15 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:



"If you enjoy flying the Pawnee so much, you should volunteer to split
the tow cost with the glider pilot you're towing."



Since I'm a club member, and pay club dues, that's essentially what we
do. And the time I spend towing is time I can't spend flying my own
glider, or giving rides in club gliders, etc. So it all works out.

Kirk

66

Presumably, the glider pilot also pays dues so that's a wash. He also
pays for the aero tow which you don't. You should split the tow fee with
him since your 'hobby' is flying Pawnees.

If the winch is well designed, there is no need for a professional winch
operator. In fact, I think it's dangerous to let someone operate a winch
if they're not a pilot. Anyone with the talent to become a pilot can be
trained to operate a winch.

On Monday, November 26, 2012 9:55:56 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Bill, you're -snip- just messing with us tow pilots.

Of course I am.

Now I'm chuckling. Ya done good!

BTW, my towing pays for my glider insurance, hangar, and tows for the year.
My wife says I'm "living the dream", and it's true!


"Bill D" wrote in message
...
On Monday, November 26, 2012 9:55:56 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Bill, you're -snip- just messing with us tow pilots.

Of course I am.

In article "Dan Marotta" writes:

Bill, you're missing the point or just messing with us tow pilots. Flying
the Pawnee is not my hobby, it's my contribution to the sport. Some people
mow the grass, some clean the club house, some instruct, some fly the tug.
I'd rather fly the tug than drive the winch since I get the "view from
above" and the challenge of landing the Pawnee in a 15 kt cross wind. On
the other hand, it's a lot easier to climb in/out of a winch, and you don't
get the excitement of having your nose pointed at the ground by some
ham-fisted wannabe.

As an aside, I once considered towing, since I found out that it can be
done with a private license, but was seriously put off when I read of some
of the bad things that can happen -- such as a glider pulling ones tail up
at a low altitude.

Having read about that, I have become more sensitive to what I am doing
at the back end of the rope, but also a lot less willing to fly a towplane.

I would love to read more of your thoughts as an experienced/active tow
pilot of these risks.

Alan

On Monday, November 26, 2012 11:23:00 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:

As an aside, I once considered towing, since I found out that it can be

done with a private license, but was seriously put off when I read of some

of the bad things that can happen -- such as a glider pulling ones tail up

at a low altitude.



Having read about that, I have become more sensitive to what I am doing

at the back end of the rope, but also a lot less willing to fly a towplane.



I would love to read more of your thoughts as an experienced/active tow

pilot of these risks.



Alan

The following is based on an in-depth study of NTSB reports for the last 10 years (2001 - 2011)looking at accidents directly involving aero towing gliders. This is for 130,000 - 140,000 tows per year.

49 NTSB reports.
14 tow pilot fatalities.
13 glider pilot fatalities.
21 serious injuries.

OTOH, Germany's ~900 clubs did between 800,000 and 1,000,000 winch launches last year for just 5 accidents with 3 fatalities. Reference: DAeC and BFU, Germany's SSA and NTSB equivalents respectively.