A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old November 27th 12, 10:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Evan Ludeman[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 484
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Tuesday, November 27, 2012 3:28:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
The fun, ease and simpleness of IGC WILL attract more pilots.


Specifics, please. I haven't studied the IGC rules, and neither have most American pilots. What are the essential differences that are going to make this class a winner?

So far, I think I've got:

1. No 1-34s, etc. so we don't have to worry about low performance gliders when task setting.

2. No LS-6s, Venti and ASW-20Bs&Cs.

3. No speed or altitude limits prior to the start.

4. Much more emphasis on ATs.

5. Score everything according to FAI rules.

What did I miss?

-Evan Ludeman / T8
  #2  
Old November 27th 12, 11:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 351
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition



So far, I think I've got:

1. *No 1-34s, etc. so we don't have to worry about low performance gliders when task setting.

2. *No LS-6s, Venti and ASW-20Bs&Cs.


Actually, under IGC rules, each contest gets to make its own list,
depending on the gliders available. So "use IGC rules" and "further
restrict the US club class list to the list used in Argentina" are
separate requests.


3. *No speed or altitude limits prior to the start.


Actually, you can put in speed limits and altitude limits.

What you can't do is the US 2 minute under altitude limits, the US
start out the top, the US credit for distance rules or our cylinders
It has to be a line.

So, with altitude limits you get VNE dives to the line. Sometimes out
of the clouds. People have given up on speed limits, because you can't
tell in the cockpit what the speed will read out on see you later. At
Uvalde after days of harangue they gave up and used unlmited altitude,
which meant half the field started in wave on a few days. At Szeged
most of the gaggle circled around in the cloud before the unlimited
altitude start. Fun stuff. Advocates have a point, if you want to go
do this stuff at the worlds, practicing at home will help a lot.


4. *Much more emphasis on ATs.


A rule mandating the fraction of AT and TAT. Uvalde sent them off in
to thunderstorms on ATs because they didn't want to use up the
mandated fraction of TAT which they might need on even worse days to
come. An interesting unintended conseqence of putting in a mandated
fraction of task types.


5. *Score everything according to FAI rules.


Which feature a much more aggressive transition from speed to distance
points than US rules. If nobody makes it home, it's 1000 distance
points. Under FAI rules you make almost no points if you're the only
finisher, as it's all become distance points. You get clobbered if
you're the only landout. This is one of the big reasons that FAI rules
lead to long start gate roulette, leaving when it's hopeless, then
mass gaggles to a huge landout.

The tactical implications of the FAI scoring formula are subtle and
deep. There are several analyses of the required strategies floating
around the US team. If we go there, be prepared to play a very
different tactical game.

Advocates have a point: if you want to learn to play this game it
takes years of practice. The question for US pilots: do the 99% of you
who are not going to the worlds really want to invest a lot to
learning to play these games? You're going to be landing out a lot
more often btw.


John Cochrane
  #3  
Old November 27th 12, 11:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 47
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition


So, with altitude limits you get VNE dives to the line. Sometimes out
of the clouds. Fun stuff. Advocates have a point, if you want to go
do this stuff at the worlds, practicing at home will help a lot.


8.7 LIST OF APPROVED PENALTIES, page 34
Cloud flying: 100pts first offense, day disqual - second offense, Disqualification - max penalty.

The tactical implications of the FAI scoring formula are subtle and
deep. There are several analyses of the required strategies floating
around the US team. If we go there, be prepared to play a very
different tactical game.
The question for US pilots: do the 99% of you
who are not going to the worlds really want to invest a lot to
learning to play these games? You're going to be landing out a lot
more often btw.


John Cochrane


Keep in mind we are not proposing changing existing US Classes. We are hoping to create a new racing class and positive experience NOT available in the US. It is ONE class. Give US pilots a choice. Seeing how the petition is developing, it's clear a strong voice is growing.

I think the picture painted above about IGC rules is a bit DRAMATIC. I certainly didn't experience that in Prievidza 2010 WGC. I think safety and successful tasking varies according to contest management. That is no different in the US.

Advocates have a point: if you want to learn to play this game it

takes years of practice. The question for US pilots: do the 99% of you
who are not going to the worlds really want to invest a lot to
learning to play these games?

Interesting comment. Besides a refreshing alternative do you think this new class could serve as training for US Team pilots?

Sean Franke
  #4  
Old November 28th 12, 05:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Evan Ludeman[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 484
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Tuesday, November 27, 2012 6:08:34 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:

5. *Score everything according to FAI rules.




Which feature a much more aggressive transition from speed to distance

points than US rules. If nobody makes it home, it's 1000 distance

points. Under FAI rules you make almost no points if you're the only

finisher, as it's all become distance points. You get clobbered if

you're the only landout. This is one of the big reasons that FAI rules

lead to long start gate roulette, leaving when it's hopeless, then

mass gaggles to a huge landout.



The tactical implications of the FAI scoring formula are subtle and

deep. There are several analyses of the required strategies floating

around the US team. If we go there, be prepared to play a very

different tactical game.



Advocates have a point: if you want to learn to play this game it

takes years of practice. The question for US pilots: do the 99% of you

who are not going to the worlds really want to invest a lot to

learning to play these games? You're going to be landing out a lot

more often btw.


Points to ponder. Anyone else who has flown FAI rules want to weigh in?

Evan Ludeman / T8
  #5  
Old November 28th 12, 07:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,124
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 12:22:44 PM UTC-5, Evan Ludeman wrote:
Points to ponder. Anyone else who has flown FAI rules want to weigh in? Evan Ludeman / T8


One guy's experience.
Club WGC- Gawler 2001. 8 contest days. I was one of about 3 who finished at the contest site all days. About 20% had to use remote finish provided as loacl accomodation for weather at the site. Estimate of total completions is about 90%.

Club WGC- Musbach 2001. 9 contest days. 2 days had 100% land outs. Other 7 days had about 80% finishes.

Tasking was(and still is) designed such that you either go fast or you land out.
Scoring is more forgiving for land outs than in US where we task for minimal land outs, admittedly by commonly flying shorter tasks.
But- sometimes it pays not to finish because of the way the scoring system is set up. It really helps to have someone on the ground tell you whether to finish or land across the street.

FWIW, I would contest, based upon my personal experience, claims made that the IGC experience is either simpler, or safer. As to fun- I had the time of my life.
UH
US Club Class Team 2001(7th)/2002(15th)
  #6  
Old November 28th 12, 08:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 351
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

As to fun- I had the time of my life.
UH
US Club Class Team 2001(7th)/2002(15th)


UH: Yes, going to WGC is the experience of a pilot's lifetime. But
would you have had any less fun if it had been conducted under US
rules?

Back to the point, though. We don't need to argue this stuff in the
abstract! Put on some IGC rule super-regionals. Please! There has been
so much talk about this, let's do it! Let pilots, organizers, and
scorers try it, figure out how it works, learn the tactics, and see
if they like it.

But that we have to ask these questions does somewhat suggest that
plopping IGC rules on a national contest next spring might be a tad
ambitious.

John Cochrane
  #7  
Old November 27th 12, 11:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 47
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

I encourage you to review the rules. IGC is LESS complex,simpler and easier to understand. IGC rules are 15,091 words long compared to 25,804 (US rules).

http://www.fai.org/igc-documents

Go to Sporting Code Section 3 Annex A

1. No 1-34s, etc. so we don't have to worry about low performance gliders when task setting.

YES

2. No LS-6s, Venti and ASW-20Bs&Cs.

No LS-6 or Venti. ASW-20B&Cs HAVE BEEN allowed. They are specifically excluded in Argentina at the next WGC.

3. No speed or altitude limits prior to the start.

Altitude limits are up to CD discretion, similar to US Rules.

4. Much more emphasis on ATs.

YES. There are ONLY Racing Tasks (AT) and Assigned Area Tasks. 50/50 seems to be the philosophy.

5. Score everything according to FAI rules.

YES. See scoring calculations on page 31 & 32 of FAI SC3a rules.

Sean Franke
  #8  
Old November 27th 12, 11:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Richard Walters
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

Let's not forget what I consider the most unfair IGC CC rule of
all- no actual weight based handicapping. So if I fly a Discus b at
825 pounds and BB flies a Discus a at 700 pounds, we fly with
the same handicap. I would have a one pound PSF wing loading
advantage, which would be helpful anywhere but the maybe the
UK.
Big, heavy guys take note. I weigh 100 kg. BB considerably
less.

Richard Walters

At 23:13 27 November 2012, wrote:
I encourage you to review the rules. IGC is LESS

complex,simpler and
easier to understand. IGC rules are 15,091 words long

compared to 25,804
(US rules).

http://www.fai.org/igc-documents

Go to Sporting Code Section 3 Annex A

1. No 1-34s, etc. so we don't have to worry about low

performance
gliders when task setting.
YES

2. No LS-6s, Venti and ASW-20Bs&Cs.

No LS-6 or Venti. ASW-20B&Cs HAVE BEEN allowed. They are

specifically
excluded in Argentina at the next WGC.

3. No speed or altitude limits prior to the start.

Altitude limits are up to CD discretion, similar to US Rules.

4. Much more emphasis on ATs.

YES. There are ONLY Racing Tasks (AT) and Assigned Area

Tasks. 50/50
seems to be the philosophy.

5. Score everything according to FAI rules.

YES. See scoring calculations on page 31 & 32 of FAI SC3a

rules.

Sean Franke


  #9  
Old November 28th 12, 12:13 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 47
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Tuesday, November 27, 2012 3:54:51 PM UTC-8, Richard Walters wrote:
Let's not forget what I consider the most unfair IGC CC rule of

all- no actual weight based handicapping. So if I fly a Discus b at

825 pounds and BB flies a Discus a at 700 pounds, we fly with

the same handicap. I would have a one pound PSF wing loading

advantage, which would be helpful anywhere but the maybe the

UK.

Big, heavy guys take note. I weigh 100 kg. BB considerably

less.



Richard Walters




The reference weight for Discus a & b is 367 kg. Every 10 kg incurs a handicap increase of 0,005. Yes, there can be a wing loading difference but it's accounted for in the handicap.

Copied from current handicap list:

"The handicap is based on the performance at the New IGC Reference Mass.
If a glider is flown at a mass not exceeding this reference mass it can be considered as operated within legal mass limits.
Where a glider is flown at a higher mass by necessity, the pilot will have to provide documentation to prove that his glider is
still operated within legal mass limits and the handicap will be increased by 0,005 for each 10 kg or part thereof that the glider
exceeds the reference mass. However the wing loading may in no case exceed 38 kg/m2. In addition the handicap may in no
case exceed 1,09."

Sean Franke

  #10  
Old November 28th 12, 12:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Richard Walters
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 33
Default FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

Sean,

My understanding is that pilots that fly under the "normal" weight
for their glider type, do not get a handicap reduction. So instead
they fly with lead bars to get to the normal weight. Or they fly
light ( real light in the case of Sarah Arnold) and give up an
unfair advantage.

Are you proposing allowing lead ballast?

Richard Walters

At 00:13 28 November 2012, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 27, 2012 3:54:51 PM UTC-8, Richard

Walters wrote:
Let's not forget what I consider the most unfair IGC CC rule

of

all- no actual weight based handicapping. So if I fly a Discus

b at

825 pounds and BB flies a Discus a at 700 pounds, we fly

with

the same handicap. I would have a one pound PSF wing

loading

advantage, which would be helpful anywhere but the maybe

the

UK.

Big, heavy guys take note. I weigh 100 kg. BB considerably

less.



Richard Walters




The reference weight for Discus a & b is 367 kg. Every 10 kg

incurs a
handicap increase of 0,005. Yes, there can be a wing loading

difference
but it's accounted for in the handicap.

Copied from current handicap list:

"The handicap is based on the performance at the New IGC

Reference Mass.
If a glider is flown at a mass not exceeding this reference

mass it can be
considered as operated within legal mass limits.
Where a glider is flown at a higher mass by necessity, the pilot

will have
to provide documentation to prove that his glider is
still operated within legal mass limits and the handicap will be

increased
by 0,005 for each 10 kg or part thereof that the glider
exceeds the reference mass. However the wing loading may in

no case exceed
38 kg/m2. In addition the handicap may in no
case exceed 1,09."

Sean Franke



 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Club Class Nationals 5 ugly Soaring 37 September 24th 10 03:27 AM
US 15 Meters Nationals and Region V South Club Class [email protected] Soaring 0 March 12th 09 03:59 PM
Establishing Club Class/Too Many Nationals/Not Enough Competitors Tim[_2_] Soaring 14 October 2nd 08 03:34 PM
AUS Club Class Nationals Overall Results Mal Soaring 0 January 27th 06 09:55 AM
UK Open Class and Club Class Nationals - Lasham Steve Dutton Soaring 0 August 6th 03 10:07 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2025 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.