FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:32:03 AM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
On Dec 1, 7:36*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

On Dec 1, 7:47*pm, "Sean F (F2)" wrote:



F2



If I remember correctly pilots called for Club Class in 2007 and in

2008. The rules committee told the pilots to organize a regional

contest and if all goes well and there is solid participation the

project will be taken to the next level. Well in 2009 the first Club

Class contest took place in Cordele. There were 17 pilots flying Club

Class tasks (including assigned tasks). Since the contest run along

side of the 15 m Nationals and some members of the rules committee

were on site there was a discussion about the future of Club Class.

Despite good pilot participation and calls for Club Class Nationals

the Rules Committee found many arguments against it effectively

killing the enthusiasm. In the past there were polls on this subject

in favor of creation of the Club Class but somehow arguments against

the class always won. Some pilots sold their club class gliders and

moved on since they had no hope of ever getting there.



So when I hear another call to create a regional Club Class contest I

say I heard that before, but no thx.



Overall the rules committee is doing a good job but in regards to Club

Class issue I think the RC failed to lead. How many years will this

issue be debated? As Sam Giltner said if you want a class you need

stability. Pilots need to know what gliders to buy. No one can plan

anything if the list of gliders constantly is being changed. It is not

true that the IGC list changes often.



Anyway since I am no longer having a Club Class glider I don't have a

personal interest in this topic (at least for now) but it pains me to

see how this problem is being approached. Please, look around at most

contests there are no young faces any longer. The young faces are

flying Club Class gliders and they are staying home. Another 10 years

and the competition scene will be dead. The economy is terrible there

is no upward mobility, gas is expensive, very few pilots will be able

to afford new gliders. It is time for new ideas. The contest

participation is collapsing at every contest you see mostly the same

group of pilots.



The creation of a club class at sports class nationals in 2013 is

exactly the culmination of the process you mention. Yes, we listened.

We said create club regionals. You did. It was a success. A modest

success -- we didn't see 30 coming out -- but it did prove the

concept has legs.



Club class regionals are now a permanent, non-waiver class that

organizers can choose anytime they want to, and pilots can ask

organizers to do. We kept our end of the deal. Why have they not

happened? They're in the rules, we did all we could. Now it's up to

you guys to keep going past the first burst of enthusiasm. We write

the rules, we don't run contests and we don't call pilots and persuade

them to show up.



In any case, now we have created a club nationals too, just as we said

we would. Given the dwindling enthusiasm shown for club regionals, the

still low participation of club gliders at sports nationals, and the

vexing problem of what to do with gliders like the sparrowhawk, which

do not fit IGC club class, we included the lower performance gliders.



One step at a time. We MUST ensure that the new class succeeds. If we

create a class at nationals and 7 pilots show up and everybody gets

sent home, that is the END of the class. If 17 pilots show up in the

first burst of enthusiasm and then 7 show up the next year, this is

the END of the class. We MUST make decisions based on data, not on

theories (if you use IGC rules 50 pilots will come out of the woodwork

and fly -- even though they're not on the seeding list) We will not

repeat the world class fiasco. Are you listening? We're on your side

here. This is our best attempt to create what you want, in a way that

will be durable and successful.



The use of SSA rules, and the US team upper limit for club class

(ventus 1) has been in these US club class experiments all along.



So, you guys got 95% of what you had been asking for: A separate class

at nationals, following on the same model that was tried and

demonstrated at regionals. All you had to do was suffer the indignity

of letting a sparrowhawk or 1-34 tag along (there are usually 1-2

such gliders at sports nationals).



We figured we'd be getting bouquets of flowers and boxes of

chocolates. But no: Suddenly you demand that we use IGC rules and a

different glider list, and send the sparrowhawhk home. Leaving aside

the start, finish, scoring formulas, metric units, tiny turn radii,

these rules impose completely different procedures. Quick, what are

the IGC weight limits? Rules on modifications? Rules on use of fixed

and disposable ballast? How many of your pilots know how to fly these

rules? Doing this at a nationals without trying it at regionals would

be insane.



So, yes. If you want to completely change the concept of the class --

which IGC rules really is! -- that needs to be worked out at a

regionals, not at a nationals, that is already sanctioned. The

sanctioning process includes a check of things pilots expect like, is

there a scorer and a CD who knows the rules they race is going to fly

under! Sean has a theory that it's a 5 minute job with see you to use

a different set of rules. He needs to talk to John Good and Ken

Sorenson and find out about the months -- months -- it took to get

rules and procedures worked out for Uvalde.



I'm sorry for the irritated tone. But when we give you 95% of what you

wanted, in the form that we had all been working on steadily for 5

years, and then suddenly the demands change radically at the last

moment, ignoring all the previous work, ignoring all the

practicalities of what it takes to run a contest, well, you can

imagine it's a little irritating.



John Cochrane





















ditto

On a bus trip today. Will reply in more detail tomorrow.

Dont forget that 33 people have signed this FAI Club Class (US) petition. And they are not 33 slackers. Many of them are very accomplished pilots WHO OWN AND FLY Club Range gliders and have been asking for this class for years.

Sean

Petition: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/262/8...fb_connected=1

And you guys (RC) are much closer to getting roses and tremendous praise then you think...

:-)

I want nothing more then to be the first sender of flowers.

Originally Posted by Sean F (F2)

On a bus trip today. Will reply in more detail tomorrow.

Dont forget that 33 people have signed this FAI Club Class (US) petition. And they are not 33 slackers. Many of them are very accomplished pilots WHO OWN AND FLY Club Range gliders and have been asking for this class for years.

Sean

Petition: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/262/8...fb_connected=1

Sean, 2 of the petition signees are from Australia. You have counted them in the 33 because they fly contests in the US? or are you just trying to bolster the numbers?

Cheers
Colin

35 now. Discount them as needed. But in general, the soaring crowd is not interested in public debate. The fact that 35 have signed (minus whatever number you wish) is very compelling to most... Not the RC however. They are relying on their poll.

Sean

Originally Posted by Sean F (F2)

35 now. Discount them as needed. But in general, the soaring crowd is not interested in public debate. The fact that 35 have signed (minus whatever number you wish) is very compelling to most... Not the RC however. They are relying on their poll.

Sean

But by not answering the query about the 2 Australians on the petition list you seem to very selective about what you want to debate. I'm just an interested bystander but the question was valid.

You appear to be trying to fudge the numbers so your credibility, objectiveness and integrity will likely be called into question by those you seek to get onside

Colin

Originally this was a reply to the Club Class Nationals thread but I'm
starting a new topic as I ended up going off on a tangent. Please keep
in mind that opinions are like butt-holes and everyone has one, I'm
only throwing in my $.05 to provide the US RC with another data-point...

The current Sports class format isn't for everyone and is driving (some)
people away. I really hated Sports class, apart from my first US
contest I always chose a different class if available. In fact, the
Sports class format was one of the reasons I sold my SZD-55 and moved
onto the ASW-27. Those without a competitive ship in 15m or Std. class
need an alternative to Sports class. There are a few ways of doing this
- introducing limited handicapping to the other classes is one of them,
adding a "new" narrow range class (Club) achieves the same thing leaving
the other classes “pure”.

Additionally to the wide handicap range, however, I feel that the
tasking across all the classes plays a major role in the current
downward trend in contest attendance. I think that pilots are
frustrated by driving many miles, spending a lot of money, and burning
their vacation time just to fly a 2-3 hr task. The turn areas in AAT’s
are too big while the distances between the areas are too short. There
are definitely not enough Assigned Tasks being called. The long MAT is
fine, but not a substitute for AST, furthermore, it is not usually
called instead we are given 1 or 2 tp’s… More of the flyable day needs
to be utilized instead of worrying about making it home in time for dinner.

I realize that writing rules is always a compromise, and you will never
make everyone (or is it anyone?) happy, furthermore, there are many
factors other than rules that play a big role in the types of task that
are being called at contests. Even though I don’t agree with some of
the rules, I would like to congratulate the US RC on their methodical
and thoughtful approach to writing them. At the same time I urge you to
listen to the opinion of pilots who are not satisfied with the current
format.

Respectfully
Luke Szczepaniak

On Dec 14, 9:42*am, Luke Szczepaniak wrote:
Originally this was a reply to the Club Class Nationals thread but I'm
starting a new topic as I ended up going off on a tangent. *Please keep
in mind that opinions are like butt-holes and everyone has one, *I'm
only throwing in my $.05 to provide the US RC with another data-point...

The current Sports class format isn't for everyone and is driving (some)
people away. *I really hated Sports class, apart from my first US
contest I always chose a different class if available. *In fact, the
Sports class format was one of the reasons I sold my SZD-55 and moved
onto the ASW-27. *Those without a competitive ship in 15m or Std. class
need an alternative to Sports class. *There are a few ways of doing this
- introducing limited handicapping to the other classes is one of them,
adding a "new" narrow range class (Club) achieves the same thing leaving
the other classes “pure”.

Additionally to the wide handicap range, however, I feel that the
tasking across all the classes plays a major role in the current
downward trend in contest attendance. *I think that pilots are
frustrated by driving many miles, spending a lot of money, and burning
their vacation time just to fly a 2-3 hr task. *The turn areas in AAT’s
are too big while the distances between the areas are too short. *There
are definitely not enough Assigned Tasks being called. *The long MAT is
fine, but not a substitute for AST, furthermore, it is not usually
called instead we are given 1 or 2 tp’s… *More of the flyable day needs
to be utilized instead of worrying about making it home in time for dinner.