FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Thursday, December 6, 2012 8:56:44 PM UTC-5, Chilhowee wrote:
One last thing is I have to say is "WOW, did Guy Byars just say he'd
be happy to update Winscore with an option for FAI scoring?" Maybe
others missed it. That would be great, especially if there were a fun
regional planned under FAI rules...


Yes, I did say that and I meant it. But be careful what you wish for...

If you are going to hold a contest and STRICTLY follow the FAI rules to the letter, then that necessitates tasking and scoring in kilometers. If you read the FAI rules, you will see that the tasking parameters (cylinder radii, minimum task distances... etc) are all specified in km. Simply changing the units display on the task sheet will give you odd things like a turnpoint cylinder of 0.310686 miles or a Min Task distance of 62.1371 miles.

So if you then decide to change the task parameters to convenient English units, then you are no longer using the FAI rules, but something you made up yourself... like the SSA does now.

The trick is to preserve the spirit and the simplicity of the FAI rules, but at the same time make them a bit more palatable to US pilots. These issues need to be decided by the various appointed comittees and organizers. I am willing to work with them to implement what they decide in Winscore for next season.

Guy Byars

Up to 41 petition signatures...

I wonder, at what point does the number of people signing the petition (what percentage do you think wont sign because they are worried about public debate, etc) become compelling to our representatives?

On Friday, December 7, 2012 12:49:52 PM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Up to 41 petition signatures...



I wonder, at what point does the number of people signing the petition (what percentage do you think wont sign because they are worried about public debate, etc) become compelling to our representatives?

Compelling your representatives to do what? The petition does not describe any concrete, actionable steps.

If you want some change to the structure of this year's already-scheduled sports class nationals at Mifflin, you need a clear, detailed, and explicit written statement of what you want and how it can be accomplished.

If you want to run a club class regional by FAI rules, put together a clear written plan conforming to the requirements for ssa sanction.

Send these to the contest committee chair, not a new petition. There's a lot of complaint about rules committee not listening, but you have to give us something concrete to work on.

If you want someone else to figure all this out... well, we did, and the current structure is the best we could come up with. Your turn.

John Cochrane

On Friday, December 7, 2012 11:59:50 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, December 7, 2012 12:49:52 PM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:

Up to 41 petition signatures...







I wonder, at what point does the number of people signing the petition (what percentage do you think wont sign because they are worried about public debate, etc) become compelling to our representatives?



Compelling your representatives to do what? The petition does not describe any concrete, actionable steps.



If you want some change to the structure of this year's already-scheduled sports class nationals at Mifflin, you need a clear, detailed, and explicit written statement of what you want and how it can be accomplished.



If you want to run a club class regional by FAI rules, put together a clear written plan conforming to the requirements for ssa sanction.



Send these to the contest committee chair, not a new petition. There's a lot of complaint about rules committee not listening, but you have to give us something concrete to work on.



If you want someone else to figure all this out... well, we did, and the current structure is the best we could come up with. Your turn.



John Cochrane

I think the petition title is clear "SSA adoption of FAI rules for 2013 US Club Class Nationals" The actionable step is make US Club Class FAI. In other words NOT another US Rules based class.

Keep in mind it's the RC who proposed changing structure of the already-scheduled Sports Class Nationals at Mifflin. Club Class proponents are saying if you are going to change structure then this is what WE want. I think pilots who are actually going to fly the class should have a say. Don't you?

By the way, it's been said to prove the concept at a super-regional. At what super-regional has the RC version of Club Class been tested and proven?

I can tell you there have been super-regional FAI like Club Class run successfully. I flew a Club Class regional last year in Moriarty. With the exception of FAI scoring formula everything else was in FAI format. We ran it, did it, it's done. How many more do you want?

The RC is proposing their own version of Club Class. Why is the RC not following its own policy of proving it in a regional first? Why is the RC not allowing FAI US Club Class to take it to the next level? We have proven the concept successful in regional contests.

Sean Franke (HA)

On Friday, December 7, 2012 7:27:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Keep in mind it's the RC who proposed changing structure of the already-scheduled Sports Class Nationals at Mifflin.

[...]

I can tell you there have been super-regional FAI like Club Class run successfully. I flew a Club Class regional last year in Moriarty. With the exception of FAI scoring formula everything else was in FAI format. We ran it, did it, it's done. How many more do you want?



The RC is proposing their own version of Club Class. Why is the RC not following its own policy of proving it in a regional first? Why is the RC not allowing FAI US Club Class to take it to the next level? We have proven the concept successful in regional contests.



Sean Franke (HA)

Okay, help me out here, please. What changes are the RC making to the CC Nats that depart so radically (and apparently, objectionably) from the CC you ran at Moriarity? I'm not seeing it.

T8

On Friday, December 7, 2012 5:17:10 PM UTC-8, Evan Ludeman wrote:
On Friday, December 7, 2012 7:27:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:



Keep in mind it's the RC who proposed changing structure of the already-scheduled Sports Class Nationals at Mifflin.



[...]



I can tell you there have been super-regional FAI like Club Class run successfully. I flew a Club Class regional last year in Moriarty. With the exception of FAI scoring formula everything else was in FAI format. We ran it, did it, it's done. How many more do you want?







The RC is proposing their own version of Club Class. Why is the RC not following its own policy of proving it in a regional first? Why is the RC not allowing FAI US Club Class to take it to the next level? We have proven the concept successful in regional contests.







Sean Franke (HA)



Okay, help me out here, please. What changes are the RC making to the CC Nats that depart so radically (and apparently, objectionably) from the CC you ran at Moriarity? I'm not seeing it.



T8

1. Tasking
2. Handicap range

Sean Franke (HA)

Okay, help me out here, please. What changes are the RC making to the CC Nats that depart so radically (and apparently, objectionably) from the CC you ran at Moriarity? I'm not seeing it.



T8

Evan:

The CC we ran at Moriarty was defined as follows:

SSA Handicaps .935 - 1.05 (if my rememberance is correct), Plus Ventus (15m), LS6 (15m), ASW-20 (15m). And that was it!

This was done to capture many HP's at the higher end and to capture the 304CZ's at the lower end, plus ASW-20's that are allowed at worlds, AND adding V1's and LS6's per the request of members of the RC.

Importantly, it did not allow for the current crop of Std Class ships (D2, LS8, ASW-28. They still have their class. And it did not allow for any of the 1.05 and up ships either. The Sparrowhawks, Russias, Apis, have their own class coming too.

It is the RANGE expansion by the RC that is very much at odds with the historical practice of CC around the world - and at Moriarty.

I can hear the argument coming my way now: "but we do not tell anyone to go away in any other class..."

Well yes we do. Open ships can't race in 18m or 15m class, 18m and 15m can't race in Std Class. Defining a class is about defining it with boundaries so as to make the racing better. Otherwise we just end up with Sports Class that is bifurcated and one part of it is called Club Class.

EY

+1.

On Friday, December 7, 2012 8:44:28 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Okay, help me out here, please. What changes are the RC making to the CC Nats that depart so radically (and apparently, objectionably) from the CC you ran at Moriarity? I'm not seeing it.







T8



Evan:



The CC we ran at Moriarty was defined as follows:



SSA Handicaps .935 - 1.05 (if my rememberance is correct), Plus Ventus (15m), LS6 (15m), ASW-20 (15m). And that was it!



This was done to capture many HP's at the higher end and to capture the 304CZ's at the lower end, plus ASW-20's that are allowed at worlds, AND adding V1's and LS6's per the request of members of the RC.



Importantly, it did not allow for the current crop of Std Class ships (D2, LS8, ASW-28. They still have their class. And it did not allow for any of the 1.05 and up ships either. The Sparrowhawks, Russias, Apis, have their own class coming too.



It is the RANGE expansion by the RC that is very much at odds with the historical practice of CC around the world - and at Moriarty.



I can hear the argument coming my way now: "but we do not tell anyone to go away in any other class..."



Well yes we do. Open ships can't race in 18m or 15m class, 18m and 15m can't race in Std Class. Defining a class is about defining it with boundaries so as to make the racing better. Otherwise we just end up with Sports Class that is bifurcated and one part of it is called Club Class.



EY

Thanks... yep, right there on the info page (facepalm).

However, that *is* unique. You can race a 1-26 in open class if you like. But you aren't going to get any consideration in tasking.

T8

Can someone explain why the IGC does not allow ASW20B&C
models in CC WGC? Granted the B&C are slightly better
performing, and some have winglets, but handicaps can take care
of those differences.

It would help fill out contest rosters.

Regards
Rick Walters