FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Thursday, December 13, 2012 11:41:46 AM UTC-8, Evan Ludeman wrote:
On Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:40:52 PM UTC-5, wrote:

We already have momentum to make the FAI US Club Class the most popular racing class.



Your evidence for this assertion?



T8

Based on petition support:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/262/8...out-exception/

Also, committed marketing talent and discussions with like minded pilots ready to take this to the next level.

Sean Franke (HA)

On Thursday, December 13, 2012 3:03:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, December 13, 2012 11:41:46 AM UTC-8, Evan Ludeman wrote:

On Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:40:52 PM UTC-5, wrote:



We already have momentum to make the FAI US Club Class the most popular racing class.







Your evidence for this assertion?







T8



Based on petition support:



http://www.thepetitionsite.com/262/8...out-exception/



Also, committed marketing talent and discussions with like minded pilots ready to take this to the next level.



Sean Franke (HA)

lol.

I was hoping for a more reality based discussion.

T8

I received an email with good questions about the petition and FAI US Club Class. Here are my answers:

Q. I feel bad for those that own nice ships that would be excluded from the fun?
A. I agree FAI rules are fun compared to US Rules. Guys with nice ASG29’s and V2’s really need to talk to the rules committee if they want FAI rules for their class. I don’t think anyone in Club Class would object to high performance (or low performance) gliders as a “G” guest in the Club Class. Currently “G” guests get scored but not ranked. Keep in mind tasking would ONLY be based on pure Club Class gliders.

Q. What about a poor guy that spent his retirement money on a LS 6 or a ASW 20c?
A. ASW 20 b and c have been allowed in past WGC and should be INCLUDED in the FAI US Club Class. I think Guy Byars statement carries wisdom and direction. "The trick is to preserve the spirit and the simplicity of the FAI rules, but at the same time make them a bit more palatable to US pilots."

Q. By the official FAI definition aren’t Ventus 1s also excluded?
A. Yes. However, there is discussion about LS6 and V1’s either staying in US Rules Sports Class or being allowed in FAI US Club Class.

Q. What happens to the Sports Class when this all goes down?
A. Nothing changes in Sports Class. Club Class eligible gliders have the choice of staying in Sports Class or fly US FAI Club Class. All other gliders stay in the Sports Class

Q. Will there be less participation overall?
A. No, in fact the opposite. We will grow participation. FAI US Club Class advocates are ready to market and grow the class. We are not just pulling from the Sports Class roster. One Club Class advocate alone grew Region 6 participation from 8 gliders to 45.

Q. Aren’t we a shrinking, dying sport as it is? Do we really want to put up more barriers?
A. Exactly, putting up barriers to growth won’t help our shrinking sport. We want to give pilots a contest choice. We want pilots given the option to say YES not told NO. Let’s attract those who stay at home disenchanted with US Rules. Let’s channel enthusiasm in a positive growth direction. There is little chance enthusiastic FAI Club Class advocates will take time to market participation for another US Rules based class.

Sean Franke (HA)

If you are in agreement join us on the petition: http://www.thepetitionsite..com/262/...out-exception/

On Thursday, December 13, 2012 4:30:37 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I received an email with good questions about the petition and FAI US Club Class. Here are my answers:



Q. I feel bad for those that own nice ships that would be excluded from the fun?

A. I agree FAI rules are fun compared to US Rules. Guys with nice ASG29’s and V2’s really need to talk to the rules committee if they want FAI rules for their class. I don’t think anyone in Club Class would object to high performance (or low performance) gliders as a “G” guest in the Club Class. Currently “G” guests get scored but not ranked. Keep in mind tasking would ONLY be based on pure Club Class gliders.



Q. What about a poor guy that spent his retirement money on a LS 6 or a ASW 20c?

A. ASW 20 b and c have been allowed in past WGC and should be INCLUDED in the FAI US Club Class. I think Guy Byars statement carries wisdom and direction. "The trick is to preserve the spirit and the simplicity of the FAI rules, but at the same time make them a bit more palatable to US pilots."



Q. By the official FAI definition aren’t Ventus 1s also excluded?

A. Yes. However, there is discussion about LS6 and V1’s either staying in US Rules Sports Class or being allowed in FAI US Club Class.



Q. What happens to the Sports Class when this all goes down?

A. Nothing changes in Sports Class. Club Class eligible gliders have the choice of staying in Sports Class or fly US FAI Club Class. All other gliders stay in the Sports Class



Q. Will there be less participation overall?

A. No, in fact the opposite. We will grow participation. FAI US Club Class advocates are ready to market and grow the class. We are not just pulling from the Sports Class roster. One Club Class advocate alone grew Region 6 participation from 8 gliders to 45.



Q. Aren’t we a shrinking, dying sport as it is? Do we really want to put up more barriers?

A. Exactly, putting up barriers to growth won’t help our shrinking sport. We want to give pilots a contest choice. We want pilots given the option to say YES not told NO. Let’s attract those who stay at home disenchanted with US Rules. Let’s channel enthusiasm in a positive growth direction. There is little chance enthusiastic FAI Club Class advocates will take time to market participation for another US Rules based class.



Sean Franke (HA)



If you are in agreement join us on the petition: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/262/8...out-exception/

This petition is totally meaningless and useless due to the fact that it is a one answer railroad job. If the creators were looking for useful information they would have also asked how many pilots are satisfied with the action of the rules committee, and/or didn't want any changes made to the sports class at all.

My prediction is that if said options were offered to the pilots who have/will fly sports class this petition would be overwhelmingly rejected.

KS

On Thursday, December 13, 2012 2:15:03 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, December 13, 2012 4:30:37 PM UTC-5, wrote:

I received an email with good questions about the petition and FAI US Club Class. Here are my answers:







Q. I feel bad for those that own nice ships that would be excluded from the fun?



A. I agree FAI rules are fun compared to US Rules. Guys with nice ASG29’s and V2’s really need to talk to the rules committee if they want FAI rules for their class. I don’t think anyone in Club Class would object to high performance (or low performance) gliders as a “G” guest in the Club Class. Currently “G” guests get scored but not ranked. Keep in mind tasking would ONLY be based on pure Club Class gliders.







Q. What about a poor guy that spent his retirement money on a LS 6 or a ASW 20c?



A. ASW 20 b and c have been allowed in past WGC and should be INCLUDED in the FAI US Club Class. I think Guy Byars statement carries wisdom and direction. "The trick is to preserve the spirit and the simplicity of the FAI rules, but at the same time make them a bit more palatable to US pilots."







Q. By the official FAI definition aren’t Ventus 1s also excluded?



A. Yes. However, there is discussion about LS6 and V1’s either staying in US Rules Sports Class or being allowed in FAI US Club Class.







Q. What happens to the Sports Class when this all goes down?



A. Nothing changes in Sports Class. Club Class eligible gliders have the choice of staying in Sports Class or fly US FAI Club Class. All other gliders stay in the Sports Class







Q. Will there be less participation overall?



A. No, in fact the opposite. We will grow participation. FAI US Club Class advocates are ready to market and grow the class. We are not just pulling from the Sports Class roster. One Club Class advocate alone grew Region 6 participation from 8 gliders to 45.







Q. Aren’t we a shrinking, dying sport as it is? Do we really want to put up more barriers?



A. Exactly, putting up barriers to growth won’t help our shrinking sport. We want to give pilots a contest choice. We want pilots given the option to say YES not told NO. Let’s attract those who stay at home disenchanted with US Rules. Let’s channel enthusiasm in a positive growth direction. There is little chance enthusiastic FAI Club Class advocates will take time to market participation for another US Rules based class.







Sean Franke (HA)







If you are in agreement join us on the petition: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/262/8...out-exception/



This petition is totally meaningless and useless due to the fact that it is a one answer railroad job. If the creators were looking for useful information they would have also asked how many pilots are satisfied with the action of the rules committee, and/or didn't want any changes made to the sports class at all.



My prediction is that if said options were offered to the pilots who have/will fly sports class this petition would be overwhelmingly rejected.



KS

Yes, Sports Class pilots should be offered the option of flying in FAI US Club Class at Mifflin. There is no reason to change the Sports Class, leave it as-is. Give pilots a choice. This petition is about developing a new class proven in several super-regionals. It's now time to take it to the next level.

Sean Franke (HA)

50 people signing a petition counter your viewpoint is not reality? I think the problem with the current leadership is worse than I imagined.

On Friday, December 14, 2012 3:07:25 PM UTC-5, Sean F (F2) wrote:
50 people signing a petition counter your viewpoint is not reality? I think the problem with the current leadership is worse than I imagined.

Well wishers are great. But what makes a competition go are (qualified) pilots with sailplanes. Of 47 signatories, about half are qualified (you need to have been scored in a regional). Of the rest, who is actually even thinking about attending? We don't know: you have not asked. Your assessment of this petition's numbers is -- in my view -- wishful thinking.

I've run the numbers on past contests and referred to them here. That's "reality based" to me. It's a little marginal. The RC sees the same trends I do, sensibly has put in place a procedure that covers all likely scenarios. You guys stamp your feet, disparage the folks that question your (obviously) wishful thinking, claim that you "smell fear" (I loved that one) and wear out your caps lock keys in response. Oooooookaaaaaaay.

Many of us agree with you that the low performance end of sports class causes issues w.r.t. tasking and scoring. One possible solution here is to put your efforts into recruiting *more* low performance guys. Get a dozen of the below FAI CC performance guys to show up and we can run three classes, with the low performance guys in a class of their own. I think just about everyone would be happy with that. I'll bet we could even get some RC action on that one.

Btw... since you are such a fan... why didn't you take the opportunity to run a club class at Ionia? Seems odd. Ah well.

One more constructive suggestion: next time you get the idea to tell someone else how their contest should be run, consider speaking with them (i.e. the organizer / sponsor / CM) privately first and see if you can get them interested in your idea. Karl, btw, has asked the RC for variances on Nationals rules for Mifflin before. He didn't get approved in the case I am thinking of, but the point is that there are plenty of people in this sport who do think creatively about how to build participation and they... aren't... your... adversaries.

Evan Ludeman / T8

On Saturday, December 15, 2012 12:04:02 PM UTC-8, Evan Ludeman wrote:
On Friday, December 14, 2012 3:07:25 PM UTC-5, Sean F (F2) wrote:

50 people signing a petition counter your viewpoint is not reality? I think the problem with the current leadership is worse than I imagined.



Well wishers are great. But what makes a competition go are (qualified) pilots with sailplanes. Of 47 signatories, about half are qualified (you need to have been scored in a regional). Of the rest, who is actually even thinking about attending? We don't know: you have not asked. Your assessment of this petition's numbers is -- in my view -- wishful thinking.



I've run the numbers on past contests and referred to them here. That's "reality based" to me. It's a little marginal. The RC sees the same trends I do, sensibly has put in place a procedure that covers all likely scenarios. You guys stamp your feet, disparage the folks that question your (obviously) wishful thinking, claim that you "smell fear" (I loved that one) and wear out your caps lock keys in response. Oooooookaaaaaaay.



Many of us agree with you that the low performance end of sports class causes issues w.r.t. tasking and scoring. One possible solution here is to put your efforts into recruiting *more* low performance guys. Get a dozen of the below FAI CC performance guys to show up and we can run three classes, with the low performance guys in a class of their own. I think just about everyone would be happy with that. I'll bet we could even get some RC action on that one.



Btw... since you are such a fan... why didn't you take the opportunity to run a club class at Ionia? Seems odd. Ah well.



One more constructive suggestion: next time you get the idea to tell someone else how their contest should be run, consider speaking with them (i.e. the organizer / sponsor / CM) privately first and see if you can get them interested in your idea. Karl, btw, has asked the RC for variances on Nationals rules for Mifflin before. He didn't get approved in the case I am thinking of, but the point is that there are plenty of people in this sport who do think creatively about how to build participation and they... aren't.... your... adversaries.



Evan Ludeman / T8

Evan, the major frustration is an apparent hypocrisy coming from the RC.

Club Class pilots were told to "prove your concept in a Regional". We did several times. I think listening to the same broken record gets old after a while. If the RC said, OK your due diligence is noted let's take this to the Nationals, there would be no issues.

Instead the RC created their own version of "Club Class" which besides the name resembles nothing close to a genuine Club Class. Certainly nothing close to what many worked hard for at several super-regionals.

If concepts need to be proven first at a Super-Regional then show me which regional the RC tested their "Club Class" version?

Yes, we have a valid reason to "stamp feet". We are calling "foul". The only "disparaged folks" are those who have worked hard over the past few years to create a genuine Club Class.

Sean Franke (HA)

50 people signing a petition counter your viewpoint is not reality? I think the problem with the current leadership is worse than I imagined.

50 people signing a petition counter your viewpoint is not reality? I think the problem with the current leadership is worse than I imagined.