FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Tuesday, December 18, 2012 1:19:43 AM UTC-8, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, December 17, 2012 10:02:46 PM UTC+1, Sean F (F2) wrote:

In response to comment calling the public petition for a TRUE...US Club Class into question, I must chuckle a bit. Well, actually a lot. Again, great people on the RC I personally respect and enjoy. But on this point roughly 50 US Club Ship owners have considerable discrepancies in opinion. It appears that rather significant communication gaps exist with the US RC. We can and will have disagreements over such matters but remain friends, gentleman and passionate pilots who love the sport together. This petition is about choice. Is choice good? Is providing an option to US pilots good? US rules or IGC?







Our petition is actually VERY SIMPLE. If said pilot wants the option to fly IGC rules (handicap range and taking philosophy), they signed the petition. If they do not, or are not sure, they did not sign. The petition leaves zero room for subjective question design (and omission), interpretation or "analysis...".







50 US pilots have clearly, openly, publicly, proudly voted or the formation of an IGC rules based US Club Class! We (50+ and growing steadily) are very proud of this petition and continue to grow each day as the visibility into this topic grows.







Sean



F2



Why don't you guys quit whining and just go have your race, FAI rules and all! Nobody is stopping you - there isn't a law that says you can't have your own race outside the SSA franchise. We've been doing it for years in Arizona, with our own subset of rules. And we have a lot of fun.



If a lot of Club Class gliders show up, and everybody has fun, then you will have a leg to stand on. Right now, all I see and hear is a lot of bitching and moaning about how the SRA is dissing the poor little Club Class, etc...



But I guess I won't bother, since my glider isn't retro enough.



Kirk

66

Kirk, you are right. We can do this outside of the SSA. However, there are drawbacks.

1. Lower participation. Attendance will be diminished without SSA sanctioning. Many don't have resources to fly two major contest the same year. You must fly an SSA sanctioned contest to get seeding points.

2. US Team. The USTC will not recognize a non-sanctioned contest for US Team placing. It's a bit ironic that a contest flown under IGC rules wouldn't be recognized for US Team placing under this scenario.

3. Hurt Sports Class. We don't want to draw Club Class gliders from the Sports Class to another venue. Holding a separate non-sanctioned Club Class "Nationals" at another location will force pilots to choose which location they want to fly on their limited time and financial budget. Our proposal will help Sports Class organizers by ADDING gliders to their location. We want to see Sports Class held intact and at the same contest hold an FAI US Club Class Nationals.

Sean Franke (HA)

On Tuesday, December 18, 2012 6:30:48 PM UTC+1, wrote:

Kirk, you are right. We can do this outside of the SSA. However, there are drawbacks.
1. Lower participation. Attendance will be diminished without SSA sanctioning. Many don't have resources to fly two major contest the same year. You must fly an SSA sanctioned contest to get seeding points.
2. US Team. The USTC will not recognize a non-sanctioned contest for US Team placing. It's a bit ironic that a contest flown under IGC rules wouldn't be recognized for US Team placing under this scenario.
3. Hurt Sports Class. We don't want to draw Club Class gliders from the Sports Class to another venue. Holding a separate non-sanctioned Club Class "Nationals" at another location will force pilots to choose which location they want to fly on their limited time and financial budget. Our proposal will help Sports Class organizers by ADDING gliders to their location. We want to see Sports Class held intact and at the same contest hold an FAI US Club Class Nationals.

Sean, your proposal by definition is going to limit participation and hurt Sports class. You cut off access to a bunch of not-quite-competitive gliders at the upper end, and I guarantee you will scare off the newby sports class guys with your "foreign, unsafe" FAI rules that emphasize start gaggling and mass landouts (remember, newbies still read Soaring cover to cover). And how many club class racers really care if they get seeding points? They may just want to race.

Setup a contest - advertise it as FAI and see who comes. Let anyone race, but if they are outside Club Class just score them as guests, and don't task for them (tough on 2-33s and ETAs, so what...). See what happens - and if is a success, petition the USTC to recognise the scores for US Club Class team selection.

Good luck - really. I truly hope Club Class works (and figure in a few years my LS6 will be legal, anyway), but I'm not sure the current approach is working.

Kirk
66

Sean, your proposal by definition is going to limit participation and hurt Sports class. You cut off access to a bunch of not-quite-competitive gliders at the upper end, and I guarantee you will scare off the newby sports class guys with your "foreign, unsafe" FAI rules that emphasize start gaggling and mass landouts (remember, newbies still read Soaring cover to cover).. And how many club class racers really care if they get seeding points? They may just want to race.


Kirk, Sports Class will continue to have the same results even if Club Class gliders move into a separate class at the same venue. Yes, the Sports Class category will have fewer gliders because some are now in the Club Class category. Organizers will be happy to see increased overall participation.. Based on petition and previous marketing results I see a meaningful participation increase.

Suggesting a newbie will be scared off is ludicrous. IGC rules are at minimum just as safe as US rules. If a newbie has a Club Class glider, the option of flying US rules in Sports Class is an option. This petition is about having a choice. I have flown IGC contests many times. I have not experienced your ascertation of increased start gaggling and mass landouts under IGC rules. How many IGC contests have you flown to base your opinion?

Sean Franke (HA)



Setup a contest - advertise it as FAI and see who comes. Let anyone race, but if they are outside Club Class just score them as guests, and don't task for them (tough on 2-33s and ETAs, so what...). See what happens - and if is a success, petition the USTC to recognise the scores for US Club Class team selection.



Good luck - really. I truly hope Club Class works (and figure in a few years my LS6 will be legal, anyway), but I'm not sure the current approach is working.



Kirk

66

On Friday, December 21, 2012 2:41:42 AM UTC+1, wrote:

Kirk, Sports Class will continue to have the same results even if Club Class gliders move into a separate class at the same venue. Yes, the Sports Class category will have fewer gliders because some are now in the Club Class category. Organizers will be happy to see increased overall participation. Based on petition and previous marketing results I see a meaningful participation increase.

Sean, you can't have it both ways - Club Class gliders are the core of Sports class. Personally, I don't care for Sports class, so it's academic, but a new guy in the sport with his newly purchased ASW-19 might think otherwise.

Suggesting a newbie will be scared off is ludicrous. IGC rules are at minimum just as safe as US rules. If a newbie has a Club Class glider, the option of flying US rules in Sports Class is an option. This petition is about having a choice. I have flown IGC contests many times. I have not experienced your ascertation of increased start gaggling and mass landouts under IGC rules. How many IGC contests have you flown to base your opinion?

Sean, you are being elitist - something I'm accused of frequently! Ask pilots of racing gliders who don't race why they don't race and you will get a lot of answers, but a lot are scared off by "all the rules". Advertising a contest as following "foreign FAI rules" is not going to make those pilots more likely to show up! And please note that I didn't say FAI rules are more dangerous, I said that someone who is thinking about getting into the sport and gets his information from reading Soaring or RAS is probably going to get that impression. Read Moffat's Winning - I thought it was exciting, but some would find it scary!

Again, I wish you guys luck. But the "we are the hotshots and want to do things our way because we know better" attitude is getting a bit old ;^) Just do it.

Kirk
66
Starting to look for a 15M regional to go to this summer...

Kirk,

Looks like Moriarty will be having a conventional Region 9 Contest this year.

The Petition has hit 50 signatures!

When I get back from vacation after Xmas I have 4 more who are having browser based trouble signing the petition.

Next goal is 60. Funny, I arbitrarily selected a goal of 100. Even I thought there was no chance of reaching it. Now I am beginning to wonder :-).

We will definitely apply to the SSA for a waiver for an FAI Club Class in Ionia (R6N) this season. So If you are interested please sign up for Region 6 North, sign up for Sports Class and send me an email about your intentions to fly FAI Club. There should be a fairly strong turnout (could be as high as 15-18)!

Merry Xmas and happy holidays to everyone. I am enjoying this debate and no matter what happens I am very much looking forward to soaring next season!

Best,

Sean
F2

54 signatures.

Last two cents on these issues:

1. On "the rules committee doesn't listen." From the 2013 pilot
opinion poll

Question:

Split sports class into 'club' and 'modern FAI.' 'Club' allows all
gliders below, say, 0.90, while 'Modern' allows all gliders but
tasking and handicap adjustment stop at, say, 0.92. The two contests
are co-located, and revert to a single class if less than, say, 12
pilots in each class show up.

Approve 71%
Disapprove 9%
Don'tCare 6%

Poll http://ssa.org/files/member/2012%20S...%20Results.pdf

This is about the strongest approval we get for anything. Read
through the comments. I cannot find a single one suggesting that club
be carved off and fly strict IGC rules. (I just checked again,
searching for "FAI" "IGC" and "Club" just to be sure.) I'm not sure
with this feedback how on earth we were supposed to dream this one
up.

If 50 of you really think the current proposal is atrocious, and club
had to be moved to nationals only in full IGC purity, where were you
on the pilot opinion poll? OK, well, this is our process, and be sure
that it will appear on next year's poll, if you still feel this way,
answer then.

2. On "run an IGC contest if you want." This is a good idea. Better
than an unsanctioned regional, there has long been talk that the US
should run an IGC "continental championship." With FAI classes as well
as club class, this could be a big draw for pilots with world
ambitions from all over the US and Canada, international pilots who
want good igc rankings, as well as a US team practice. Needless to
say, such contests use full IGC rules and class definitions. The
minutes of the RC meeting

http://ssa.org/files/member/2012%20R...es%20Final.pdf

record substantial support for such a contest. This idea just needs
an enthusiastic contest manager and director ready to do all the
work. How about it, Seans?

John Cochrane

For What it is worth.

The South African competition committee runs FAI Club class rules, with
a wider range of handicaps allowed to encourage participation.

Result as at day 5 at this year's Nationals - 3rd year of the allowing
the higher performance gliders in.

# CN Pilot Team Glider Total
1. TG Tommie Grobler ASW 19b 3871
2. YP Iain Rennie Astir CS 3814
3. L1 Konrad Stark AVP ASW 15 3586
4. ZP Kevin Mitchell DG400 3101
5. LEO Marcus Nouwens ASW27a 3041
6. YA Jean du Plessis Club Astir 3023
7. 01 Stephan van den Berg Std Jantar 1593
8. JB Jaco Burger AVP LS1f 1430
9. 122 Garth Beavon Astir CS 547

So there are 33% higher performance flapped 15m racers in there.
ASW19b - 1:41
DG400 - 1:42
ASW27a - 1:48

The rest are in the 1:35-37 range and best glide at lower speeds and
over narrower speed ranges.

That said - The racing seems to be quite well balanced by handicap - the
higher performance gliders do not seem to have much advantage.

Seems I was wrong - on the topic of contestants moving up and dropping
the traditional club class ships.

Of course the tasking and handicapping is critical.

So - it appears a straight FAI club class does work, even when you open
the handicap range up. Now - if there was more participation it would be
nice, but the poor participation is not caused by using FAI Club rules.

My advice would be - Go run a contest and see what happens. You will
probably be pleasantly surprised.


On 2012/12/19 7:21 PM, John Cochrane wrote:

Last two cents on these issues:

1. On "the rules committee doesn't listen." From the 2013 pilot
opinion poll

Question:

Split sports class into 'club' and 'modern FAI.' 'Club' allows all
gliders below, say, 0.90, while 'Modern' allows all gliders but
tasking and handicap adjustment stop at, say, 0.92. The two contests
are co-located, and revert to a single class if less than, say, 12
pilots in each class show up.

Approve 71%
Disapprove 9%
Don'tCare 6%

Poll http://ssa.org/files/member/2012%20S...%20Results.pdf

This is about the strongest approval we get for anything. Read
through the comments. I cannot find a single one suggesting that club
be carved off and fly strict IGC rules. (I just checked again,
searching for "FAI" "IGC" and "Club" just to be sure.) I'm not sure
with this feedback how on earth we were supposed to dream this one
up.

If 50 of you really think the current proposal is atrocious, and club
had to be moved to nationals only in full IGC purity, where were you
on the pilot opinion poll? OK, well, this is our process, and be sure
that it will appear on next year's poll, if you still feel this way,
answer then.

2. On "run an IGC contest if you want." This is a good idea. Better
than an unsanctioned regional, there has long been talk that the US
should run an IGC "continental championship." With FAI classes as well
as club class, this could be a big draw for pilots with world
ambitions from all over the US and Canada, international pilots who
want good igc rankings, as well as a US team practice. Needless to
say, such contests use full IGC rules and class definitions. The
minutes of the RC meeting

http://ssa.org/files/member/2012%20R...es%20Final.pdf

record substantial support for such a contest. This idea just needs
an enthusiastic contest manager and director ready to do all the
work. How about it, Seans?

John Cochrane


--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

On Wednesday, December 19, 2012 2:58:10 PM UTC-5, BruceGreeff wrote:
For What it is worth. The South African competition committee runs FAI Club class rules, with a wider range of handicaps allowed to encourage participation. Result as at day 5 at this year's Nationals - 3rd year of the allowing the higher performance gliders in. # CN Pilot Team Glider Total 1. TG Tommie Grobler ASW 19b 3871 2. YP Iain Rennie Astir CS 3814 3. L1 Konrad Stark AVP ASW 15 3586 4. ZP Kevin Mitchell DG400 3101 5. LEO Marcus Nouwens ASW27a 3041 6. YA Jean du Plessis Club Astir 3023 7. 01 Stephan van den Berg Std Jantar 1593 8. JB Jaco Burger AVP LS1f 1430 9. 122 Garth Beavon Astir CS 547 So there are 33% higher performance flapped 15m racers in there. ASW19b - 1:41 DG400 - 1:42 ASW27a - 1:48 The rest are in the 1:35-37 range and best glide at lower speeds and over narrower speed ranges. That said - The racing seems to be quite well balanced by handicap - the higher performance gliders do not seem to have much advantage. Seems I was wrong - on the topic of contestants moving up and dropping the traditional club class ships. Of course the tasking and handicapping is critical. So - it appears a straight FAI club class does work, even when you open the handicap range up. Now - if there was more participation it would be nice, but the poor participation is not caused by using FAI Club rules. My advice would be - Go run a contest and see what happens. You will probably be pleasantly surprised. On 2012/12/19 7:21 PM, John Cochrane wrote: Last two cents on these issues: 1. On "the rules committee doesn't listen." From the 2013 pilot opinion poll Question: Split sports class into 'club' and 'modern FAI..' 'Club' allows all gliders below, say, 0.90, while 'Modern' allows all gliders but tasking and handicap adjustment stop at, say, 0.92. The two contests are co-located, and revert to a single class if less than, say, 12 pilots in each class show up. Approve 71% Disapprove 9% Don'tCare 6% Poll http://ssa.org/files/member/2012%20S...%20Results.pdf This is about the strongest approval we get for anything. Read through the comments. I cannot find a single one suggesting that club be carved off and fly strict IGC rules. (I just checked again, searching for "FAI" "IGC" and "Club" just to be sure.) I'm not sure with this feedback how on earth we were supposed to dream this one up. If 50 of you really think the current proposal is atrocious, and club had to be moved to nationals only in full IGC purity, where were you on the pilot opinion poll? OK, well, this is our process, and be sure that it will appear on next year's poll, if you still feel this way, answer then. 2.. On "run an IGC contest if you want." This is a good idea. Better than an unsanctioned regional, there has long been talk that the US should run an IGC "continental championship." With FAI classes as well as club class, this could be a big draw for pilots with world ambitions from all over the US and Canada, international pilots who want good igc rankings, as well as a US team practice. Needless to say, such contests use full IGC rules and class definitions. The minutes of the RC meeting http://ssa.org/files/member/2012%20R...es%20Final.pdf record substantial support for such a contest. This idea just needs an enthusiastic contest manager and director ready to do all the work. How about it, Seans? John Cochrane -- Bruce Greeff T59D #1771

It would have been a bit wider if my fiend Nick Gradinski did not have a last minute paperwork issue that prevented him from participating with his KA-6.
UH