Best performing Vario?

On Friday, February 8, 2013 1:59:25 PM UTC-5, rk wrote:
On Friday, February 8, 2013 4:24:00 PM UTC+2, kirk.stant wrote:

On Friday, February 8, 2013 2:21:45 PM UTC+1, rk wrote:



After reading this thread one can conclude that quality of variometer signal is of secondary importance to most glider pilots. There doesn't seem to be many posters who really can comment on variometer quality. Colour displays, flashing lights and dozens of useless features rule... It's a shame really.







So, what is your definition of a quality variometer? A pellet vario will give you raw data, is that what you want? Come on, fess up, what gets you up best?







Kirk



66



Ilec SN10B, Westerboer VW910, Themi. Mechanicals are just so 20th century...



I've flown Cambridge S-&L-NAV, WV910/920/921, VP-3,4 and 6, Zander SR-940&ZS-1, SDI C3, LX5000, LX7000, LX8000, LX160 (dozens-hundreds hours each) plus probably dozen other variometers for short flights.



So far the best electrical variometer has been good old Zander SR940 (yes better than ZS1), which I've used in 3 different gliders for over 500 hrs. Every other system is a league below SR, including all the new LX varios (both facctories), which is worrying since I believe they have majority of new computer market these days.

Hi
That's an opinion not a fact.
What makes the SR 940 the best?
S6

On Friday, February 8, 2013 1:15:06 PM UTC-6, s6 wrote:
On Friday, February 8, 2013 1:59:25 PM UTC-5, rk wrote:

On Friday, February 8, 2013 4:24:00 PM UTC+2, kirk.stant wrote:



On Friday, February 8, 2013 2:21:45 PM UTC+1, rk wrote:







After reading this thread one can conclude that quality of variometer signal is of secondary importance to most glider pilots. There doesn't seem to be many posters who really can comment on variometer quality. Colour displays, flashing lights and dozens of useless features rule... It's a shame really.















So, what is your definition of a quality variometer? A pellet vario will give you raw data, is that what you want? Come on, fess up, what gets you up best?















Kirk







66







Ilec SN10B, Westerboer VW910, Themi. Mechanicals are just so 20th century...







I've flown Cambridge S-&L-NAV, WV910/920/921, VP-3,4 and 6, Zander SR-940&ZS-1, SDI C3, LX5000, LX7000, LX8000, LX160 (dozens-hundreds hours each) plus probably dozen other variometers for short flights.







So far the best electrical variometer has been good old Zander SR940 (yes better than ZS1), which I've used in 3 different gliders for over 500 hrs. Every other system is a league below SR, including all the new LX varios (both facctories), which is worrying since I believe they have majority of new computer market these days.



Hi

That's an opinion not a fact.

What makes the SR 940 the best?

S6

This thread reminds me of one of Jim Foreman's best stories...

http://www.jimforeman.com/Stories/varios.htm

Maybe I need to ditch that fancy Tasman and find me a pellet vario for the Ka-6.

Any recommendations for a good audio pellet vario out there? :-)

Pete

On Friday, February 8, 2013 9:15:06 PM UTC+2, s6 wrote:
On Friday, February 8, 2013 1:59:25 PM UTC-5, rk wrote:

On Friday, February 8, 2013 4:24:00 PM UTC+2, kirk.stant wrote:



On Friday, February 8, 2013 2:21:45 PM UTC+1, rk wrote:







After reading this thread one can conclude that quality of variometer signal is of secondary importance to most glider pilots. There doesn't seem to be many posters who really can comment on variometer quality. Colour displays, flashing lights and dozens of useless features rule... It's a shame really.















So, what is your definition of a quality variometer? A pellet vario will give you raw data, is that what you want? Come on, fess up, what gets you up best?















Kirk







66







Ilec SN10B, Westerboer VW910, Themi. Mechanicals are just so 20th century...







I've flown Cambridge S-&L-NAV, WV910/920/921, VP-3,4 and 6, Zander SR-940&ZS-1, SDI C3, LX5000, LX7000, LX8000, LX160 (dozens-hundreds hours each) plus probably dozen other variometers for short flights.







So far the best electrical variometer has been good old Zander SR940 (yes better than ZS1), which I've used in 3 different gliders for over 500 hrs. Every other system is a league below SR, including all the new LX varios (both facctories), which is worrying since I believe they have majority of new computer market these days.



Hi

That's an opinion not a fact.

What makes the SR 940 the best?

S6

Yes of course it is my opinion. And dozens of other european top pilots'. Go to worlds and look at their cockpits.

SR is only variometer that can show what is happening when you blaze trough thermal at 200kph. Others are usually all around place.

I'm not into old technology, I just wan't to point out that new technology isn't always better, as it should. I hope that Butterfly and Clearnav get the vario part right. Probably they need to mature few more years as nowadays nothing seems to work as advertised right out of the product line.

On Friday, February 8, 2013 3:35:32 PM UTC-5, rk wrote:

SR is only variometer that can show what is happening when you blaze trough thermal at 200kph.

I have nothing to dispute. I just want to learn something.

I see that the ability to get an accurate reading at high horizontal velocity is a feature that distinguishes the best varios from the lesser varios. At what speed do lesser varios start to degrade? Is the degradation abrupt or gradual? Specific examples would be helpful.

Is there any other criteria where one modern vario is clearly better than another?

On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 13:51:52 -0800, son_of_flubber wrote:

On Friday, February 8, 2013 3:35:32 PM UTC-5, rk wrote:

SR is only variometer that can show what is happening when you blaze
trough thermal at 200kph.

I have nothing to dispute. I just want to learn something.

I see that the ability to get an accurate reading at high horizontal
velocity is a feature that distinguishes the best varios from the lesser
varios. At what speed do lesser varios start to degrade? Is the
degradation abrupt or gradual? Specific examples would be helpful.

Is there any other criteria where one modern vario is clearly better
than another?

Pass: confession time. I use relatively old varios and am happy with them.

I have an SDI C4 (running V4.06 firmware), a Borgelt B.40 and LK8000.

The C4 really needs a connection to a GPS that knows at least the next TP
or it loses its final glide and wind calculation abilities. Unfortunately
mine doesn't have a GPS connection at present, but I really like the
noises it makes when climbing and running between thermals and its
configuration is a good match on my glider's polar. Medium term plan is
to add a GPS feed (its wind and final glide calculations are good) but in
the interim LK8000 is handling these details well. I used to use a Garmin
GPS II+ which, when it had a waypoint selected, sent the C4 what it
needed to know to do a really good job on FG and wind. Now I run LK8000
for airspace awareness but the PNA it runs on has no connectivity for
outputting the NMEA sentences the C4 needs so I'm looking at LK8000 for FG
and wind. The C4 has a monochrome LCD display that's always easy to read
and has enough area and configuration options to show all the info you
need when you need it with little or no need to manually change the
display.

The B.40 is the fastest vario I've flown with and I love it! Its my
preferred instrument for locating a thermal but, once established I use
the C4 noises to keep centered. The B.40 is really my backup vario
because it has a 9v battery strapped to its back and so is a good get-me-
home device if/when the 12v batteries fail. Readability is not an issue
since it has a conventional needle and dial.

Other devices I like:

- the Tasman V1000. Several of our club gliders have this fitted.
It works well, makes nice noises and seems to be both fast and
accurate. It has a monochrome LCD display using blocks that move
round the edge to show instant climb rate and a digital average
climb rate displayed in the centre.

- the LX16 as a basic instrument. Has a fast, shockproof monochrome
display and makes very fast responding and informative noises.
Some of out club gliders have them fitted.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

perjantai, 8. helmikuuta 2013 23.51.52 UTC+2 son_of_flubber kirjoitti:

Is there any other criteria where one modern vario is clearly better than another?

Yes, I think there is several actually.

- accuracy of variometer reading. When you turn in steady thermal and your vario average is same as whole thermal average from other source, you know that systematic error is pretty much zero. Many variometers are very optimistic.

- accuracy and sensitivity in high total energy situations. Going through 2m/s thermal at 200kph and variometer says "2 m/s" (relative netto) is surprisingly hard thing to achieve. I think this is the part where modern acceleration/gyro sensors could improve things.

- fast response speed combined with good gust filtering. If you thermal 1 m/s and suddenly hit 3 m/s, your variometer should give fast reading of 1 - 3m/s. Usually it is too slow reaction, or it is very fast reading of 1 - 5 - 4 - 3 m/s. Other problematic spot is hitting a bad spot while thermalling. Variometers tend to be better at telling you climb rate is improving than vice versa. This is true for mechanical variometers also, so there might be a mechanical reason for it. Often your feeling is that you are out of the core, but variometers are still showing good climb rate.

- very good centering aid. This works really well in SR940&ZS1, and is fully configurable. Great thing to have if you are scraping in that last bubble after 7 hrs fligth. Once you get used to it, you wouldn't live without it.

My thoughts on the Tasman V1000. Three years ago I was new to soaring and updating an original condition Cirrus. I purchased the Tasman because it was modern and in my price range. I like the vario and the sounds it makes. I like the battery voltage feature. I like the averager. What I don't like is the rate of climb depiction via LCD segments. I find the needle on my mechanical Winter is easier to see at a glance. I can honestly say I have not used the Tasman "instantaneous rate" depiction since I installed it. It goes back to the analog versus digital argument among car manufacturers.. The digital dashboard didn't last very long.

For this reason and a few others I am awaiting my new LXNav V7.

The Borgelt B40's in two of our club gliders seem to be excellent varios despite their age.

I do like varios that have a dead band in the center. Those long final glides sure are nice in a quite cockpit.

Lane

On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:40:35 AM UTC-6, wrote:
My thoughts on the Tasman V1000. Three years ago I was new to soaring and updating an original condition Cirrus. I purchased the Tasman because it was modern and in my price range. I like the vario and the sounds it makes. I like the battery voltage feature. I like the averager. What I don't like is the rate of climb depiction via LCD segments. I find the needle on my mechanical Winter is easier to see at a glance. I can honestly say I have not used the Tasman "instantaneous rate" depiction since I installed it. It goes back to the analog versus digital argument among car manufacturers. The digital dashboard didn't last very long.



For this reason and a few others I am awaiting my new LXNav V7.



The Borgelt B40's in two of our club gliders seem to be excellent varios despite their age.



I do like varios that have a dead band in the center. Those long final glides sure are nice in a quite cockpit.



Lane

Lane I put an LX16 in the Cherokee a few years ago and have found that i don't really look at it that much either, probably for the same reason and that my trusty old Winter is top center on the panel. I do like the audio though and the average display.

In general my favorite vario at any given time is whatever one is showing up. the more up the better

This year i started flying with a few B40's and like them.

pete maybe we need to install a whistle or reed or something in the line from the flask to the pellet vario

On 08/02/2013 22:35, rk wrote:

So far the best electrical variometer has been good old Zander SR940 (yes better than ZS1), which I've used in 3 different gliders for over 500 hrs. Every other system is a league below SR, including all the new LX varios (both facctories), which is worrying since I believe they have majority of new computer market these days.

What makes the SR 940 the best?

SR is only variometer that can show what is happening when you blaze trough thermal at 200kph. Others are usually all around place.

My answer to this question is Zander SR800. I have about 800 hours in
two gliders with that vario.

My motivation is the same as yours. When the pointer read 2.5m/s flying
through a thermal, you could stop, centre and expect to achieve 2.5m/s
on the averager.

(Zander's meters were bigger than than those used by other instrument
makers. When I had 2.5m/s on the averager, the Cambridge pilots reported
3m/s, climbing at the same speed in the same thermal).

I am not sure if this had anything to do with the electronics but more
to do with the plumbing. The SR800 uses a capacity flask not direct
pressure readings. I think all of the modern devices use direct pressure
measurement and need fancy digital filtering to get the same needle
movement as a capacity system.

My last SR800 has long since died. I now have a B500 and XCSoar etc. The
B500 is a touch disappointing compared to the SR800, but once again I
think the plumbing is to blame as it is a pressure device sharing the
compensation probe with a Winter mechanical (flask) device.

Now I listen to the B500, I look at the winter mechanical if I want to
see a needle and I use the bug trail on XCSoar for thermal centering
intelligence and wind speed/direction into.

But I think I get the best thermalling performance by looking out of the
window and flying the glider. The airframe communicates as well at the
electronics and audio provides reassurance. It is the most fun too!

Ian