Is a 45 year old student pilot considered 'youth'?

WOW - you figured that one out all by yourself or did you cheat and look at what is going on across the pond?? ;-)

I flew 2011 and 2012 with a German club at a field that support six resident glider clubs. On any given day I was there the number of youths pretty much matched the number of older members. I flew a half dozen weekends in England, too.

More than one of the older members explained the pattern of "license while in school job/wife/kids/house back to flying as a 40-year-old" to me.

The teenagers were soloing in an ASK-21, getting their first single-seat experience in an ASK-18, moving onto an LS1 or LS4, then a Discus - all before even getting a license. A winch launch in this club is $6 if you have a license, $5 of you don't. The ASK-21 is $18/hr, billed by the minute; the ASK-18 and LS1/4 slightly less.

Everyone can get three or four short lessons (one or two longer ones if thermals) for less than the price of a single aero tow!

It's quite typical in a German club that the student pilot's first aero tow takes place just before the check ride, doing enough that both winch and aero tow show up on the newly printed license.

A very large fraction of the students who solo will eventually get a license and eventually let life's realities get in the way of flying. Most of them will come back.

No one in Europe thinks of the ASK-21 as an "advanced trainer" that can only be flown after mastering an SGS 2-33. There are 14-year-olds in Europe soloing -21's, flying over the Autobahn that they won't be able to drive on for three more years!

I have to agree with Uli about the excitement of the winch. My log book shows about 270 flights. The private- commercial- (both in the US) and aerobatic training is all aero tow, but virtually all of the rest is via winch launch. All of my longest flights to-date were winch launches.

I don't know what all the answers are. Membership in German clubs is slowly declining as more and more competition for time arrises. It's hard for people to get to the glider field at 10:00 and stay to 5:00 every day they want to fly; there's no reserving a time and just showing up for that.

The Brits have great success doing things similarly to the Germans. The ASK-13 (nicely spin-able) and the ASK-21 are generally the trainer(s) of choice there, too. The Brits have a very popular Air Cadet program somewhat analogous to the Cadet Program of the US Civil Air Patrol.

Soaring in the US seems to be about as expensive per flight as powered flying. I've paid "minimum per flight charges" for five minutes in a 2-33 that were higher than an hour in "a real glider" elsewhere. My local FBO charges $110/hour for an older, IFR C-172. How does that compare to $75/hr for a 2-33 plus a tow?

My suggestions:

Prices down, recruiting up, a/c utilization up, publicity up

This won't work everywhere, but what if we encouraged FBOs to refer would-be pilots who are too young to have much money to join the CAP and learn to fly through the glider program. CAP benefits. The new glider pilot benefits.. Ultimately even the FBO benefits as the glider pilot considers adding on powered flight. It's not for everyone, but it is a relatively inexpensive way to fly gliders.

Long ramble - hope it's of some value!

Terry

On Saturday, February 23, 2013 7:40:53 AM UTC-5, Terry Pitts wrote:

I flew 2011 and 2012 with a German club at a field that support six resident glider clubs.

By contrast in the USA, when the 2-33s finally wear out, soaring may follow the "yachting club" model. Very small, exclusive, and expensive.

...when the 2-33s finally wear out...
What do you mean? They are not already ...???

"Small, exclusive and expensive"...I think we are already there. At my local commercial operation, a 3,000 ft tow is $60, one hour in a L23 is $50 and instruction is $50 per hour. If you end up with no lift, you have about a 15-16 minute sled ride. Figure in the minimum charges for the glider rental and the CFIG and you are north of $100 for essentially 15 minutes of flying. That is entertainment to the tune of $400 per hour. I don't know many folks that have that kind of entertainment budget. THAT is one problem hindering the growth and sustainability of this sport.

On Saturday, February 23, 2013 12:37:55 PM UTC-5, wrote:
"Small, exclusive and expensive"...I think we are already there. At my local commercial operation, a 3,000 ft tow is $60, one hour in a L23 is $50 and instruction is $50 per hour. If you end up with no lift, you have about a 15-16 minute sled ride. Figure in the minimum charges for the glider rental and the CFIG and you are north of $100 for essentially 15 minutes of flying. That is entertainment to the tune of $400 per hour. I don't know many folks that have that kind of entertainment budget. THAT is one problem hindering the growth and sustainability of this sport.

Commercial operations obviously bring a lot of value to the sport, but that is a one-sided view. I know personally of four clubs in the USA that offer much more affordable soaring. In each case there is significant philanthropy, a few big gifts and many smaller ones, and considerable volunteer contributions of time. It adds up over the years and as a relative newcomer to the sport I have been the beneficiary. (Thanks BTW!) All of these clubs have a pretty good (albeit aging) fleet of gliders as well. Three of the airports have subsidized programs for youngsters. These are not exclusive 'yacht clubs'.

I agree that "learning" to fly gliders is quite expensive. I try to assure
my students that there is "light at the end of the tunnel."

As you get better at the sport, the price goes way down.

Clubs are typically in the $500 to $1000 per year cost range.

The cost of ownership (individual or with partner) of a modest glider is
not much more that that......(I'm leaving out the cost of the glider itself
figuring the glider can most likely be sold at any time for your purchase
price)

You soon learn to "choose your days" ... don't fly on days that are going
to be sleigh rides...

Once you learn to find thermals during tow, you can usually release at
2000' or less, saving $10 or more per tow. (Clubs typically offer tows for
about 1/2 the price of commercial operators, but clubs with tow planes
typically have higher dues..it is a wash....unless if you fly a lot, then a
towing club is a big cost advantage.

Once you start mastering thermalling, and then x country...flights of 3
hours become "normal" and many flights will be 6 or even 8 hours. Flying at
a ridge location, you can literally fly all day long if you so desire.
(Obviously the longer the flight, the lower the cost per hour.)

Now if you fly say, every other week.... you can do the math and find that
the cost drops to under $50 per hour...probably more like $25.

Suddenly, gliding becomes cheaper than Golf, or Skiing, or drinking at the
bar, etc!

I've had years where gliding cost me around to $10 per hour!!!

Cookie





At 17:37 23 February 2013, wrote:
"Small, exclusive and expensive"...I think we are already there. At my
loca=
l commercial operation, a 3,000 ft tow is $60, one hour in a L23 is $50
and=
instruction is $50 per hour. If you end up with no lift, you have about
a
=
15-16 minute sled ride. Figure in the minimum charges for the glider
rental=
and the CFIG and you are north of $100 for essentially 15 minutes of
flyin=
g. That is entertainment to the tune of $400 per hour. I don't know many
fo=
lks that have that kind of entertainment budget. THAT is one problem
hinder=
ing the growth and sustainability of this sport.