FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition

On Sunday, February 24, 2013 8:05:35 AM UTC-8, wrote:
The fall opinion poll will contain a question asking US pilots if they wish us to change as much as possible to IGC rules, in particular tasks, tasking philosophy, scoring formulas, units (metric/US), start/finish/turnpoint geometry, equipment requirements (flight recorders), class definitions etc.. We will also be sampling opinions at SRA meetings during contests this year.



With a full sampling pilot views on this question -- separated from the future of club class nationals(which will be another, separate question) -- in hand, the RC will discuss the issue in the fall.



This is the normal procedure for rules changes, especially major ones like throwing out half of an entire rule book (US) and trying to merge it (contest times, bids, sanction process, entries, ranking list, list of officials, rule adjudication process, rule making process) with another rule book (IGC). I hope you will agree doing that on the fly between now and May is impractical.



Given that this process is in place, may I suggest giving it a rest for a while?



John Cochrane

I hope when fall opinion poll questions are created it will incorporate thoughts from outside the RC. My guess is that response from the petition and this thread was a surprise. It was a surprise because the right questions on this topic have not been asked in prior RC opinion polls.

Obviously there are enough pilots to field one FAI rules based class. There is no reason to make this an "all or nothing" change. Most US pilots want and should fly contests under the current format. Don't change or throw out the book. Create a new FAI US Club Class from the ground up for those who want it.

Sean Franke, HA

I hope when fall opinion poll questions are created it will incorporate thoughts from outside the RC. My guess is that response from the petition and this thread was a surprise. It was a surprise because the right questions on this topic have not been asked in prior RC opinion polls.

Obviously there are enough pilots to field one FAI rules based class. There is no reason to make this an "all or nothing" change. Most US pilots want and should fly contests under the current format. Don't change or throw out the book. Create a new FAI US Club Class from the ground up for those who want it.

Sean Franke, HA

We certainly need to separate the question "use IGC rules" from the question "what should a club class nationals look like." Many pilots may want to see a separate club class nationals using US rules, and many pilots may want to fly their 15 meter gliders under IGC rules.

My own opinion is that mixing rules this profoundly different at US contests will cause havoc.

Contest A uses 5 mile radius US start with 2 minutes, start out the top, and credit for extra distance; miles and feet; credit for distance in turnpoints, soft buffers for minor mistakes, the US finish.

Contest B uses a 10 km start line, no top, groundspeed limited, kilometers and meters, no credit for distance in turnpoints, no buffers for minor mistakes, etc.

If John Seaborn can get confused, imagine Joe Pilot. Imagine poor Joe CD who has to keep two totally different sets of rules and procedures in mind. Contests are full of enough screwups and poor understanding of the rules, as it is! This strikes me as a recipe for confusion.

But, we'll hear what everyone has to say.

I don't get your first comment. Of course the poll incorporates opinion from outside the RC. That's why we send it to all 600 pilots on the seeding list, not just 4 RC members! That's why we do it! That's why there is a free form comments section, and we read every one of them. That's why we have SRA meetings in advance to know what the issues are

John Cochrane

On Sunday, February 24, 2013 9:27:08 AM UTC-8, wrote:




I hope when fall opinion poll questions are created it will incorporate thoughts from outside the RC. My guess is that response from the petition and this thread was a surprise. It was a surprise because the right questions on this topic have not been asked in prior RC opinion polls.



Obviously there are enough pilots to field one FAI rules based class. There is no reason to make this an "all or nothing" change. Most US pilots want and should fly contests under the current format. Don't change or throw out the book. Create a new FAI US Club Class from the ground up for those who want it.



Sean Franke, HA



We certainly need to separate the question "use IGC rules" from the question "what should a club class nationals look like." Many pilots may want to see a separate club class nationals using US rules, and many pilots may want to fly their 15 meter gliders under IGC rules.



My own opinion is that mixing rules this profoundly different at US contests will cause havoc.



Contest A uses 5 mile radius US start with 2 minutes, start out the top, and credit for extra distance; miles and feet; credit for distance in turnpoints, soft buffers for minor mistakes, the US finish.



Contest B uses a 10 km start line, no top, groundspeed limited, kilometers and meters, no credit for distance in turnpoints, no buffers for minor mistakes, etc.



If John Seaborn can get confused, imagine Joe Pilot. Imagine poor Joe CD who has to keep two totally different sets of rules and procedures in mind. Contests are full of enough screwups and poor understanding of the rules, as it is! This strikes me as a recipe for confusion.



But, we'll hear what everyone has to say.



I don't get your first comment. Of course the poll incorporates opinion from outside the RC. That's why we send it to all 600 pilots on the seeding list, not just 4 RC members! That's why we do it! That's why there is a free form comments section, and we read every one of them. That's why we have SRA meetings in advance to know what the issues are



John Cochrane

What I'm trying to say is I hope future poll questions on this topic will be in a format that will not skew the response in a predetermined direction, one way or the other.

I think havoc really amounts to different. Contest B can use a start line or circle (similar to US cylinder). No top or a top above expected lift. Safer than 2 minutes below then start out of the top. Ground speed limited not really applicable. Kilometer & Meters or Feet & Miles, whatever doesn't matter. Credit for distance in turnpoints, just different not havoc. Stronger difference in points for minor mistakes. YES, makes you a stronger pilot. Finish is the same for both rules. Not havoc just different.

Sean Franke, HA

Great conversation. I am not challenging the details, flexibility. I think the USRC, although I criticize the power they wield, wield it in the true belief that rhey are making soaring safer and therefore better attended. To a certain extent that may be true (maybe not).

I am only trying to shake loose from the cage we US pilots are held in and make some level of FAI rule soaring available in the USA. I also wish to shake the stigma of FAI rule soaring being flat out dangerous or irresponsible by sighting regularly that the rest if the world uses these rules and have equal safety results and perhaps better attendance (via better racing and tasking).

Nobody is bad here. We all want growth and prosperity for our sport. I am simply trying to carve out a choice for US/Canadian pilots and it appears that may happen although the USRC, for example, wants to impose its will by only approving the bid for a major US based FAI contest if we use US starting rules in lieu of FAI rules. This is an example of the dictatrial nature I dislike. The reason for this was their belief that FAI is "unsafe." Those are rather bold and important assumptions.

I vote for letting the US pilots have a choice!

Sean

I think the USRC, although I criticize the power they wield,............the dictatrial nature I dislike.

I vote for letting the US pilots have a choice!
Sean

This "power they wield" and "dictatrial" (sic) nature is a bunch of hooey. US rules work from the bottom up not top down.

If you want to see some merging of US and IGC rules at US contests, get off your butt, write down the actual set of rules you want to use, submit a bid with a request for waiver, and run such a contest. Stop whining for someone else to do all the work.

That's how the system works. It's not top down, or "dictatrial." New ideas start by waiver at regionals. Especially new ideas involving really big changes to rules and procedures.

Even if all the pilots on the poll say they want IGC rules, and the RC all decides we're for it, we would have to follow exactly the same process: find a CD willing to run the experiment by waiver at regionals, write the waiver, get all the details worked out in writing, run the experiment, find the bugs, see if the concept actually works. Poll again to see if pilots like it. Introduce it in regionals. Poll again. Move it to nationals.

US pilots do have the choice! They can run pretty much any contest they want, if they can persuade the RC that the waiver they want makes any sense at all.

You are, in fact, asking for the opposite: for the RC to impose this from the top, without the usual experimentation. Sorry, that's not how it works.

Write the rules
Get a waiver
Run a contest

Until then, stop bitching!

John Cochrane