Turn coordinator? How dare they!

"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
snip ...Why not equip gliders (with a turn and bank indicator) and pilots
(with training) to safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying if it is a
non-zero possibility

On Monday, February 25, 2013 10:50:52 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
That's a pretty naive question.

Pretty much ALL of my questions are naive due to my lack of much experience and training. It's good for me to reminded of that from time to time. Thanks for your answer.

I meant no disrespect with my reply and I hope none was taken.

Way back when, I tried the "benign spiral" in my LS-6a. I found it to be
dynamically unstable in pitch and, after a few cycles without touching the
stick, it was ready to loop or break Vne.

I know another glider pilot who told me that he entered a cumulus cloud in a
1-26, had a great climb, and flew out the side of the cloud. He tried it
again and came out the bottom of the cloud inverted. He was an Air Force
fighter pilot so unusual attitudes were no stranger to him.

It can be done, but it can also cause a bent aircraft. It's just not worth
it to me so I'll keep my eyes open for opportunities to get drawn into a
cloud or caught on top and avoid them.


"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
...
"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
snip ...Why not equip gliders (with a turn and bank indicator) and
pilots
(with training) to safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying if it is
a
non-zero possibility

On Monday, February 25, 2013 10:50:52 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
That's a pretty naive question.

Pretty much ALL of my questions are naive due to my lack of much
experience and training. It's good for me to reminded of that from time
to time. Thanks for your answer.

On Monday, February 25, 2013 5:04:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

Way back when, I tried the "benign spiral" in my LS-6a. I found it to be

dynamically unstable in pitch and, after a few cycles without touching the

stick, it was ready to loop or break Vne.

Did you use full dive brakes?

"Bill D" wrote in message
...
On Monday, February 25, 2013 5:04:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

Way back when, I tried the "benign spiral" in my LS-6a. I found it to be

dynamically unstable in pitch and, after a few cycles without touching
the

stick, it was ready to loop or break Vne.

Did you use full dive brakes?

To tell the truth, I don't recall - probably not. I think I used the
published (in Soaring) procedure but I don't remember if it called for full
dive brakes.

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:47:24 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
"Bill D" wrote in message

...

On Monday, February 25, 2013 5:04:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:



Way back when, I tried the "benign spiral" in my LS-6a. I found it to be



dynamically unstable in pitch and, after a few cycles without touching

the



stick, it was ready to loop or break Vne.



Did you use full dive brakes?



To tell the truth, I don't recall - probably not. I think I used the

published (in Soaring) procedure but I don't remember if it called for full

dive brakes.

My understanding of the "benign spiral" is the air brakes MUST be open to stabilize the glider and prevent over speed.

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 12:14:15 PM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:

My understanding of the "benign spiral" is the air brakes MUST be open to stabilize the glider and prevent over speed.

Generally, you want to make the glider as dirty as possible (gear, flaps, spoilers). The point is a descent, after all. Trim probably full aft. A little top rudder can be used to "tune" the turn rate and speed. I've convinced myself of two things w.r.t. the benign spiral in my ship: 1) it will probably work in reasonably smooth air as long as I don't pick up a load of ice, although it's going to get *really* disconcerting when the asi fails due to plugged pitot or static 2) I absolutely do not ever want to be in the position of having to do this for-real through a cloud deck, especially in NH in October (again, ice).

Evan Ludeman / T8

Maybe, just for kicks, I'll try that in my LAK-17a at the end of a wave
flight.


"Bill D" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:47:24 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
"Bill D" wrote in message

...

On Monday, February 25, 2013 5:04:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:



Way back when, I tried the "benign spiral" in my LS-6a. I found it to
be



dynamically unstable in pitch and, after a few cycles without touching

the



stick, it was ready to loop or break Vne.



Did you use full dive brakes?



To tell the truth, I don't recall - probably not. I think I used the

published (in Soaring) procedure but I don't remember if it called for
full

dive brakes.

My understanding of the "benign spiral" is the air brakes MUST be open to
stabilize the glider and prevent over speed.

At 00:20 27 February 2013, Dan Marotta wrote:
Maybe, just for kicks, I'll try that in my LAK-17a at the end of a wave
flight.


"Bill D" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:47:24 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
"Bill D" wrote in message

...

On Monday, February 25, 2013 5:04:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta
wrote:



Way back when, I tried the "benign spiral" in my LS-6a. I found it
to
be



dynamically unstable in pitch and, after a few cycles without
touching

the



stick, it was ready to loop or break Vne.



Did you use full dive brakes?



To tell the truth, I don't recall - probably not. I think I used the

published (in Soaring) procedure but I don't remember if it called for

full

dive brakes.

My understanding of the "benign spiral" is the air brakes MUST be open
to

stabilize the glider and prevent over speed.

A couple of years ago I was in a particulars UK comp called Enterprise I
was
enjoying the comp and making up the numbers and every one new Justin
Wills was going to win ,former world champion and he understands the
rules.
Could flying is permitted and I know Justin cloud flys because I watched
him
disappear above .Next day while grid squatting I made a point of looking at

Justin's panel ,no horizon but 2 turn and slip.
For the many non Brits Enterprise was set up 30 years or so ago as an
alternative to circuit racing ,the idea being to get as much out of the day
as is
possible and the following day Justin and the day winner do an extensive
debrief explaining the desitions they made both routing and met so we can
all
learn and make better desitions .I recommend looking at there web site and

you will be able to read the ethos more succinctly

I hate this spell checker.

In article son_of_flubber writes:
"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
snip ...Why not equip gliders (with a turn and bank indicator) and pilots
(with training) to safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying if it is a
non-zero possibility

On Monday, February 25, 2013 10:50:52 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
That's a pretty naive question.

Pretty much ALL of my questions are naive due to my lack of much experience and training. It's good for me to reminded of that from time to time. Thanks for your answer.


I would agree and disagree with Dan about this. Obvious reasons
include expense (gyros are expensive), weight, and power.

The training would probably be a big deal as well -- the single
engine private pilot requirement is for 3 hours of flight training
in manuvering solely by reference to instruments. Even so, the
record of accidents after non-instrument rated pilots wander into
weather is not good.

I think that few would want to mandate these instruments be in
gliders.

On the other hand, I have read postings describing sudden rain
encounters that forced a pilot to suddenly and unexpectedly have
to fly by instrument reference, in conditions where visibility
had been substantial (perhaps 15 miles) a few instants before.
I can see where a running gyro instrument in the panel could be
a useful safety instrument for the glider pilot who was also an
instrument competent airplane pilot.

I would not want to see such be required, but it pains me to
see situations where such capability would be disallowed.

Alan

Years ago, in a country where cloud flying was legal, I got caught above a layer of low cloud that formed suddenly near a thunderstorm gust front. I descended through the cloud with full brakes, keeping the wings level with the aid of a gyro turn and bank. It was stressful and quite a hairy descent! I was familiar enough with the instrument to survive the encounter, but in the succeeding 30 years flying I have avoided making the same mistake. I would counsel other VFR pilots to avoid this exposure to unnecessary risk..

Mike