Dangerous GPS jamming?

You can count me as concerned and annoyed. I think enough is enough. I understand that there is a need to characterize jamming scenarios and capabilities. But do the damn tests for 5 minutes at 2AM; not for hours in the middle of the day over a huge geographic area. The FAA is letting us down in this regard.

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 4:21:17 AM UTC+1, Steve Koerner wrote:
You can count me as concerned and annoyed. I think enough is enough. I understand that there is a need to characterize jamming scenarios and capabilities. But do the damn tests for 5 minutes at 2AM; not for hours in the middle of the day over a huge geographic area. The FAA is letting us down in this regard.

Steve, I have to disagree with you in this respect. If you want a system that the US military doesn't train with, then get your own - use GLONASS or the Chinese system or whatever the Euros are putting up. But complaining about GPS outages is like moving next to an active airbase then complaining about the noise!

The fact that everyone has piggybacked on GPS and found wonderful ways to use it doesn't change the fact that it is a US military funded, developed, and maintained system. It's a weapon system! We get to play with it for free, and thats great, but our contribution is in our tax money that goes to the military, not in funding GPS via FAA user fees or whatever.

That being said - Contest managers obviously need to keep an eye out for potential GPS outages that could affect a contes and work with the local military to see if there is a way to work around each others needs.

If this comes off as a rant, so be it - but like complaints about military use of MOAs and restricted airspace, it just irritates me how much people will complain about military intrusions on their pastimes while taking our national security for granted.

Cheers!

Kirk
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Well Kirk, I appreciate that you have a military perspective and I understand that it was originally developed for the military. Never the less, it was not funded by the military as you say, it was funded by me and a some other guys like me and it is for all practical purposes now a US government everybody utility and we've all become quite dependent. So please don't jam it, damn it.

Or, if they really really need to jam it for a test, do it at 2 AM. Make the test short and localized -- not like described in the Notam that Matt pointed to.

Le jeudi 28 février 2013 05:47:27 UTC+1, Steve Koerner a écrit*:
Well Kirk, I appreciate that you have a military perspective and I understand that it was originally developed for the military. Never the less, it was not funded by the military as you say, it was funded by me and a some other guys like me and it is for all practical purposes now a US government everybody utility and we've all become quite dependent. So please don't jam it, damn it.



Or, if they really really need to jam it for a test, do it at 2 AM. Make the test short and localized -- not like described in the Notam that Matt pointed to.

I seem to understand this is not a test about the effectivity of GPS jamming. Red Flag is a full blown military exercise, where aircraft (often also from other NATO forces) are flying in simulated war situations. GPS jamming seems to be a fairly obvious way of handicapping your opponents. It makes it necessary for them to revert to inertial navigation systems, to good old map reading, compass and chronometer, or switch to whatever successor to GPS may already exist (it would most likely remain highly classified). It is logical to simulate this aspect also - and the easiest way is of course to effectively jam the GPS signal. But it seems to me it would be just as efficient to disable GPS reception in the participating planes. I don't know if it's feasible though in complex weapon systems...

So it seems you're "just unlucky" to live in an area hosting this type of exercise. Perhaps it's not such a bad idea to have a backup camera, after all, for contests in that area. Even if IGC doesn't recognize this method anymore, I think it could very well be specified in the local rules. You would only need to activate the system in case of scheduled jamming, of course. Not being IGC regulated, you could even use a digital camera or your phone (the pictures are timestamped)...

Well, at least they don't prohibit you flying, as they sometimes do in large areas of some European countries during Nato (or even national) exercises.. "Temporary Prohibited / Restricted Areas" are really frequent in France, for example, the numerous permanent ones notwithstanding.

I like that the AF pilots are training with GPS jamming, it kinda makes it hard to drop a JDAM without it. They might have to do some of that "pilot sh*t".

I sometimes wonder if some people have a grip on reality. The GPS system as
we know it is a military system, designed to help our forces in times of
conflict. We use it for free and over the years the civilian use has
improved, we no longer have position errors created by the system.
Given it's primary pupose do we really want the pilots who fight using the
system to experience jamming for the first time in real combat? Might it
not be a good idea to train for the eventuality in a realistic fashion? A
small inconvieniece to contests and soaring claims is a small price to pay
to save lives of military pilots and civilians who might collect an
explosive delivery if the first time they see a jammed GPS is in combat.
Stop whining about it, deal with it in an adult fashion for pitys sake.

On 2/28/2013 6:00 PM, Don Johnstone wrote:
I sometimes wonder if some people have a grip on reality. The GPS system as
we know it is a military system, designed to help our forces in times of
conflict. We use it for free and over the years the civilian use has
improved, we no longer have position errors created by the system.
Given it's primary pupose do we really want the pilots who fight using the
system to experience jamming for the first time in real combat? Might it
not be a good idea to train for the eventuality in a realistic fashion? A
small inconvieniece to contests and soaring claims is a small price to pay
to save lives of military pilots and civilians who might collect an
explosive delivery if the first time they see a jammed GPS is in combat.
Stop whining about it, deal with it in an adult fashion for pitys sake.


Couldn't the military pilot accomplish the same thing just by turning
off the GPS on his plane?

On Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:00:24 PM UTC-8, Don Johnstone wrote:
We use it for free and over the years the civilian use has
improved, we no longer have position errors created by the system.

Uh, no, we do not use it for free, WE PAID FOR IT. I also seem to remember that, back in the 90s, there was an agreement that the Departments of Transportation and Commerce were to pay for specific upgrades to future blocks of satellites (now in orbit) out of their budgets, adding more civillian frequencies and localized satellite-based denial capability, in exchange the Department of Defense was going to limit the geographic scope and duration of this sort of testing within the boundaries of the US. We have now implemented such things as GPS precision approaches, ADS-B, GPS-aided positive train control systems, GPS-timed safety critical valve controls on gas pipelines, etc. Something is wrong with this picture...

On Thursday, February 28, 2013 10:40:01 PM UTC+1, Tom K (ES) wrote:
I like that the AF pilots are training with GPS jamming, it kinda makes it hard to drop a JDAM without it. They might have to do some of that "pilot sh*t".

"The Force, Luke, use the Force!"

Better still, a skilled WSO with a Sniper pod and the good old Laser Guided Bomb. Bonus is you get to see your target blow up in real time.

Best of all, guns. No one has yet found a way to jam a bullet...

As far as the argument that since we are taxpayers we therefore have paid for GPS and should have unrestricted access to it - Try that argument at your local air base and see if they let you jump into an F-16 and take it for a spin..."But I paid for it, dammit, so I got's the right to fly it! Now how do you start this thing?"

My position is that all my tax money was used to pay for GPS and LJDAMS and the military has my permission to jam it at will. Guys who complain about military GPS training, OTOH, their tax money paid for free cell phones for welfare moms and my retirement 8^)

Seriously, if the FAA wants to use GPS, then they are responsible for coordinating with the military for joint use.

Waiting for spring!!!

Kirk
66