Turn coordinator? How dare they!

In article son_of_flubber writes:
"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
snip ...Why not equip gliders (with a turn and bank indicator) and pilots
(with training) to safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying if it is a
non-zero possibility

On Monday, February 25, 2013 10:50:52 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
That's a pretty naive question.

Pretty much ALL of my questions are naive due to my lack of much experience and training. It's good for me to reminded of that from time to time. Thanks for your answer.


I would agree and disagree with Dan about this. Obvious reasons
include expense (gyros are expensive), weight, and power.

The training would probably be a big deal as well -- the single
engine private pilot requirement is for 3 hours of flight training
in manuvering solely by reference to instruments. Even so, the
record of accidents after non-instrument rated pilots wander into
weather is not good.

I think that few would want to mandate these instruments be in
gliders.

On the other hand, I have read postings describing sudden rain
encounters that forced a pilot to suddenly and unexpectedly have
to fly by instrument reference, in conditions where visibility
had been substantial (perhaps 15 miles) a few instants before.
I can see where a running gyro instrument in the panel could be
a useful safety instrument for the glider pilot who was also an
instrument competent airplane pilot.

I would not want to see such be required, but it pains me to
see situations where such capability would be disallowed.

Alan

Years ago, in a country where cloud flying was legal, I got caught above a layer of low cloud that formed suddenly near a thunderstorm gust front. I descended through the cloud with full brakes, keeping the wings level with the aid of a gyro turn and bank. It was stressful and quite a hairy descent! I was familiar enough with the instrument to survive the encounter, but in the succeeding 30 years flying I have avoided making the same mistake. I would counsel other VFR pilots to avoid this exposure to unnecessary risk..

Mike

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 1:11:34 AM UTC-5, Alan wrote:

I would agree and disagree with Dan about this. Obvious reasons
include expense (gyros are expensive), weight, and power.

Here is a relatively inexpensive, low-maintenance, non-gyro based, and low power consuming Turn and Bank Indicator (that claims to be much easier to use than the old style).

http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/..._and_Bank.html

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:55:05 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 1:11:34 AM UTC-5, Alan wrote:



I would agree and disagree with Dan about this. Obvious reasons

include expense (gyros are expensive), weight, and power.



Here is a relatively inexpensive, low-maintenance, non-gyro based, and low power consuming Turn and Bank Indicator (that claims to be much easier to use than the old style).



http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/..._and_Bank.html

I haven't used the Tru-Track but I have a lot of "hood time" with old fashioned partial-panel "needle-ball-airspeed-clock-compass" flying including unusual attitude recovery. Using a T&B and ASI to maintain aircraft control is a difficult skill to acquire and just as difficult to maintain. That said, given that a pilot is highly trained and very current, it does work.

However, there is a difference between airplanes and gliders WRT the T&B. An airplane T&B displays a "standard rate turn" (2 minutes per 360 turn) as two needle widths. (Needle on the "doghouse" for the old guys.) That's 6 times too sensitive for a glider where the typical turn rate is 20 seconds per turn. Turns to a heading are much easier with an airplanes slow turn rate.

Another special problem for glider pilots is we learn and practice a sort of "seat-of-the-pants" flying. However, instrument flying is the polar opposite where one must completely ignore all kinetic and vestibular "feelings" and totally commit to believing the instruments even when every fiber in your your body is screaming the instruments are wrong - and your body WILL scream at you. Saying the "mind plays tricks" is a huge understatement.

Real single-pilot, partial-panel instrument flying is a deadly serious business not to be undertaken lightly. That's why pilots without the training and currency will almost always lose control of the aircraft as soon as visual references are lost.

What concerns me most about this thread is the emphasis on instruments themselves and not the training required to use them. Training is the key.

Good description. Well said!


"Bill D" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:55:05 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 1:11:34 AM UTC-5, Alan wrote:



I would agree and disagree with Dan about this. Obvious reasons

include expense (gyros are expensive), weight, and power.



Here is a relatively inexpensive, low-maintenance, non-gyro based, and low
power consuming Turn and Bank Indicator (that claims to be much easier to
use than the old style).



http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/..._and_Bank.html

I haven't used the Tru-Track but I have a lot of "hood time" with old
fashioned partial-panel "needle-ball-airspeed-clock-compass" flying
including unusual attitude recovery. Using a T&B and ASI to maintain
aircraft control is a difficult skill to acquire and just as difficult to
maintain. That said, given that a pilot is highly trained and very
current, it does work.

However, there is a difference between airplanes and gliders WRT the T&B.
An airplane T&B displays a "standard rate turn" (2 minutes per 360 turn) as
two needle widths. (Needle on the "doghouse" for the old guys.) That's 6
times too sensitive for a glider where the typical turn rate is 20 seconds
per turn. Turns to a heading are much easier with an airplanes slow turn
rate.

Another special problem for glider pilots is we learn and practice a sort of
"seat-of-the-pants" flying. However, instrument flying is the polar
opposite where one must completely ignore all kinetic and vestibular
"feelings" and totally commit to believing the instruments even when every
fiber in your your body is screaming the instruments are wrong - and your
body WILL scream at you. Saying the "mind plays tricks" is a huge
understatement.

Real single-pilot, partial-panel instrument flying is a deadly serious
business not to be undertaken lightly. That's why pilots without the
training and currency will almost always lose control of the aircraft as
soon as visual references are lost.

What concerns me most about this thread is the emphasis on instruments
themselves and not the training required to use them. Training is the key.

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 11:14:14 AM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:

However, there is a difference between airplanes and gliders WRT the T&B. An airplane T&B displays a "standard rate turn" (2 minutes per 360 turn) as two needle widths. (Needle on the "doghouse" for the old guys.) That's 6 times too sensitive for a glider where the typical turn rate is 20 seconds per turn. Turns to a heading are much easier with an airplanes slow turn rate.

It's interesting to see how the TruTrak is marketed on the Cumulus website. He raises the "standard turn rate" issue.

http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/trutrak.htm

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 3:46:37 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 11:14:14 AM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:



However, there is a difference between airplanes and gliders WRT the T&B. An airplane T&B displays a "standard rate turn" (2 minutes per 360 turn) as two needle widths. (Needle on the "doghouse" for the old guys.) That's 6 times too sensitive for a glider where the typical turn rate is 20 seconds per turn. Turns to a heading are much easier with an airplanes slow turn rate.



It's interesting to see how the TruTrak is marketed on the Cumulus website. He raises the "standard turn rate" issue.



http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/trutrak.htm

I'm probably wrong saying 6 times too sensitive. A 1 minute T&B is the traditional glider instrument. However, think how large a 1 minute turn would be in a glider.

That's what's in my panel. Anybody want to give me $400 for it? It's been
in the panel for less than a year and has less than 30 minutes power up
time. Comes with harness, on-off switch, and connector.


"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 1:11:34 AM UTC-5, Alan wrote:

I would agree and disagree with Dan about this. Obvious reasons
include expense (gyros are expensive), weight, and power.

Here is a relatively inexpensive, low-maintenance, non-gyro based, and low
power consuming Turn and Bank Indicator (that claims to be much easier to
use than the old style).

http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/..._and_Bank.html

Gyros are not disallowed except in competition (in the USA, at least). I
have a functional J-8 attitude indicator in my hangar but it's too heavy and
power hungry to install in my panel. Not to mention that I've already
stated my firm intention to stay out of clouds.

I'd be a lot happier with the attitude indicator than I am with the TruTrak.
I'm not at all impressed with it.


"Alan" wrote in message
...
In article
son_of_flubber writes:
"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
snip ...Why not equip gliders (with a turn and bank indicator) and
pilots
(with training) to safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying if it
is a
non-zero possibility

On Monday, February 25, 2013 10:50:52 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
That's a pretty naive question.

Pretty much ALL of my questions are naive due to my lack of much
experience and training. It's good for me to reminded of that from time
to time. Thanks for your answer.


I would agree and disagree with Dan about this. Obvious reasons
include expense (gyros are expensive), weight, and power.

The training would probably be a big deal as well -- the single
engine private pilot requirement is for 3 hours of flight training
in manuvering solely by reference to instruments. Even so, the
record of accidents after non-instrument rated pilots wander into
weather is not good.

I think that few would want to mandate these instruments be in
gliders.

On the other hand, I have read postings describing sudden rain
encounters that forced a pilot to suddenly and unexpectedly have
to fly by instrument reference, in conditions where visibility
had been substantial (perhaps 15 miles) a few instants before.
I can see where a running gyro instrument in the panel could be
a useful safety instrument for the glider pilot who was also an
instrument competent airplane pilot.

I would not want to see such be required, but it pains me to
see situations where such capability would be disallowed.

Alan

"Dan Marotta" wrote:
Gyros are not disallowed except in competition (in the USA, at least). I
have a functional J-8 attitude indicator in my hangar but it's too heavy
and power hungry to install in my panel. Not to mention that I've
already stated my firm intention to stay out of clouds.

I'd be a lot happier with the attitude indicator than I am with the
TruTrak. I'm not at all impressed with it.


"Alan" wrote in message ...
In article
son_of_flubber writes:
"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
snip ...Why not equip gliders (with a turn and bank indicator) and pilots
(with training) to safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying if it is a
non-zero possibility

On Monday, February 25, 2013 10:50:52 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
That's a pretty naive question.

Pretty much ALL of my questions are naive due to my lack of much
experience and training. It's good for me to reminded of that from
time to time. Thanks for your answer.


I would agree and disagree with Dan about this. Obvious reasons
include expense (gyros are expensive), weight, and power.

The training would probably be a big deal as well -- the single
engine private pilot requirement is for 3 hours of flight training
in manuvering solely by reference to instruments. Even so, the
record of accidents after non-instrument rated pilots wander into
weather is not good.

I think that few would want to mandate these instruments be in
gliders.

On the other hand, I have read postings describing sudden rain
encounters that forced a pilot to suddenly and unexpectedly have
to fly by instrument reference, in conditions where visibility
had been substantial (perhaps 15 miles) a few instants before.
I can see where a running gyro instrument in the panel could be
a useful safety instrument for the glider pilot who was also an
instrument competent airplane pilot.

I would not want to see such be required, but it pains me to
see situations where such capability would be disallowed.

Alan

Dan just out of curiosity, what about the trutrack don't you like???

Pete