Turn coordinator? How dare they!

"Bill D" wrote in message
...
On Monday, February 25, 2013 5:04:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

Way back when, I tried the "benign spiral" in my LS-6a. I found it to be

dynamically unstable in pitch and, after a few cycles without touching
the

stick, it was ready to loop or break Vne.

Did you use full dive brakes?

To tell the truth, I don't recall - probably not. I think I used the
published (in Soaring) procedure but I don't remember if it called for full
dive brakes.

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:47:24 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
"Bill D" wrote in message

...

On Monday, February 25, 2013 5:04:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:



Way back when, I tried the "benign spiral" in my LS-6a. I found it to be



dynamically unstable in pitch and, after a few cycles without touching

the



stick, it was ready to loop or break Vne.



Did you use full dive brakes?



To tell the truth, I don't recall - probably not. I think I used the

published (in Soaring) procedure but I don't remember if it called for full

dive brakes.

My understanding of the "benign spiral" is the air brakes MUST be open to stabilize the glider and prevent over speed.

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 12:14:15 PM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:

My understanding of the "benign spiral" is the air brakes MUST be open to stabilize the glider and prevent over speed.

Generally, you want to make the glider as dirty as possible (gear, flaps, spoilers). The point is a descent, after all. Trim probably full aft. A little top rudder can be used to "tune" the turn rate and speed. I've convinced myself of two things w.r.t. the benign spiral in my ship: 1) it will probably work in reasonably smooth air as long as I don't pick up a load of ice, although it's going to get *really* disconcerting when the asi fails due to plugged pitot or static 2) I absolutely do not ever want to be in the position of having to do this for-real through a cloud deck, especially in NH in October (again, ice).

Evan Ludeman / T8

Maybe, just for kicks, I'll try that in my LAK-17a at the end of a wave
flight.


"Bill D" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:47:24 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
"Bill D" wrote in message

...

On Monday, February 25, 2013 5:04:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:



Way back when, I tried the "benign spiral" in my LS-6a. I found it to
be



dynamically unstable in pitch and, after a few cycles without touching

the



stick, it was ready to loop or break Vne.



Did you use full dive brakes?



To tell the truth, I don't recall - probably not. I think I used the

published (in Soaring) procedure but I don't remember if it called for
full

dive brakes.

My understanding of the "benign spiral" is the air brakes MUST be open to
stabilize the glider and prevent over speed.

At 00:20 27 February 2013, Dan Marotta wrote:
Maybe, just for kicks, I'll try that in my LAK-17a at the end of a wave
flight.


"Bill D" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:47:24 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
"Bill D" wrote in message

...

On Monday, February 25, 2013 5:04:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta
wrote:



Way back when, I tried the "benign spiral" in my LS-6a. I found it
to
be



dynamically unstable in pitch and, after a few cycles without
touching

the



stick, it was ready to loop or break Vne.



Did you use full dive brakes?



To tell the truth, I don't recall - probably not. I think I used the

published (in Soaring) procedure but I don't remember if it called for

full

dive brakes.

My understanding of the "benign spiral" is the air brakes MUST be open
to

stabilize the glider and prevent over speed.

A couple of years ago I was in a particulars UK comp called Enterprise I
was
enjoying the comp and making up the numbers and every one new Justin
Wills was going to win ,former world champion and he understands the
rules.
Could flying is permitted and I know Justin cloud flys because I watched
him
disappear above .Next day while grid squatting I made a point of looking at

Justin's panel ,no horizon but 2 turn and slip.
For the many non Brits Enterprise was set up 30 years or so ago as an
alternative to circuit racing ,the idea being to get as much out of the day
as is
possible and the following day Justin and the day winner do an extensive
debrief explaining the desitions they made both routing and met so we can
all
learn and make better desitions .I recommend looking at there web site and

you will be able to read the ethos more succinctly

I hate this spell checker.

So what's the etiquette for cloud flying in comps? So here we are, four of us climbing happily at 4 kts under a great big towering cu, no more than 150 vertical feet of separation total. Conditions are poor up ahead but with another 3 or 4 thousand feet we can all make it to the finish with good speed and no further climbing. The first guy disappears into the fog. Now what? Just curious.

T8

At 17:56 27 February 2013, Evan Ludeman wrote:
So what's the etiquette for cloud flying in comps? So here we are, four
of=
us climbing happily at 4 kts under a great big towering cu, no more than
1=
50 vertical feet of separation total. Conditions are poor up ahead but
wit=
h another 3 or 4 thousand feet we can all make it to the finish with good
s=
peed and no further climbing. The first guy disappears into the fog.
Now
=
what? Just curious.

T8


As you will know from my post I bottled,and it is a historic fact there
was a
mid air in cloud in a worlds back in the 60's I think David Innes was one
it
was re written in sailplane and gliding about 10 years ago .As I said
enterprise is some what different so there is less chance you will be
gaggle
flying .
Some one will explain I am sure but you need to announce you intentions
and position on the comp frequency and change to cloud frequency and re
transmit and if you have more courage than me wait till they call clear
then
off you go.
Plonckers need not apply ,I consider anyone without a ATPL a ploncker.

The UK procedure when cloud flying is not to enter from below if somebody else has climbed into it until there is at least 500 ft separation. Then each calls out altitude (amsl) periodically to maintain separation.

It seems to work. No collisions in cloud since this and other procedures were introduced.

FWIW, in my experience it is rare to be climbing in the same cloud as others anyway, but on the few occasions I have done it, it worked OK.

Chris N

Wear a mouth guard and use the force maybe?