Dangerous GPS jamming?

Well Kirk, I appreciate that you have a military perspective and I understand that it was originally developed for the military. Never the less, it was not funded by the military as you say, it was funded by me and a some other guys like me and it is for all practical purposes now a US government everybody utility and we've all become quite dependent. So please don't jam it, damn it.

Or, if they really really need to jam it for a test, do it at 2 AM. Make the test short and localized -- not like described in the Notam that Matt pointed to.

Le jeudi 28 février 2013 05:47:27 UTC+1, Steve Koerner a écrit*:
Well Kirk, I appreciate that you have a military perspective and I understand that it was originally developed for the military. Never the less, it was not funded by the military as you say, it was funded by me and a some other guys like me and it is for all practical purposes now a US government everybody utility and we've all become quite dependent. So please don't jam it, damn it.



Or, if they really really need to jam it for a test, do it at 2 AM. Make the test short and localized -- not like described in the Notam that Matt pointed to.

I seem to understand this is not a test about the effectivity of GPS jamming. Red Flag is a full blown military exercise, where aircraft (often also from other NATO forces) are flying in simulated war situations. GPS jamming seems to be a fairly obvious way of handicapping your opponents. It makes it necessary for them to revert to inertial navigation systems, to good old map reading, compass and chronometer, or switch to whatever successor to GPS may already exist (it would most likely remain highly classified). It is logical to simulate this aspect also - and the easiest way is of course to effectively jam the GPS signal. But it seems to me it would be just as efficient to disable GPS reception in the participating planes. I don't know if it's feasible though in complex weapon systems...

So it seems you're "just unlucky" to live in an area hosting this type of exercise. Perhaps it's not such a bad idea to have a backup camera, after all, for contests in that area. Even if IGC doesn't recognize this method anymore, I think it could very well be specified in the local rules. You would only need to activate the system in case of scheduled jamming, of course. Not being IGC regulated, you could even use a digital camera or your phone (the pictures are timestamped)...

Well, at least they don't prohibit you flying, as they sometimes do in large areas of some European countries during Nato (or even national) exercises.. "Temporary Prohibited / Restricted Areas" are really frequent in France, for example, the numerous permanent ones notwithstanding.

I like that the AF pilots are training with GPS jamming, it kinda makes it hard to drop a JDAM without it. They might have to do some of that "pilot sh*t".

I sometimes wonder if some people have a grip on reality. The GPS system as
we know it is a military system, designed to help our forces in times of
conflict. We use it for free and over the years the civilian use has
improved, we no longer have position errors created by the system.
Given it's primary pupose do we really want the pilots who fight using the
system to experience jamming for the first time in real combat? Might it
not be a good idea to train for the eventuality in a realistic fashion? A
small inconvieniece to contests and soaring claims is a small price to pay
to save lives of military pilots and civilians who might collect an
explosive delivery if the first time they see a jammed GPS is in combat.
Stop whining about it, deal with it in an adult fashion for pitys sake.

On 2/28/2013 6:00 PM, Don Johnstone wrote:
I sometimes wonder if some people have a grip on reality. The GPS system as
we know it is a military system, designed to help our forces in times of
conflict. We use it for free and over the years the civilian use has
improved, we no longer have position errors created by the system.
Given it's primary pupose do we really want the pilots who fight using the
system to experience jamming for the first time in real combat? Might it
not be a good idea to train for the eventuality in a realistic fashion? A
small inconvieniece to contests and soaring claims is a small price to pay
to save lives of military pilots and civilians who might collect an
explosive delivery if the first time they see a jammed GPS is in combat.
Stop whining about it, deal with it in an adult fashion for pitys sake.


Couldn't the military pilot accomplish the same thing just by turning
off the GPS on his plane?

No.
He needs to be able to recognize when the system is being jammed and how to work around it.
The fail safe for the pilot navigation system is that the GPS feed into the INS exceeds the kalman filter limits and is disregarded. However, there are weapons that rely on GPS for terminal guidance. the pilot has to learn and adapt by making realtime in the air decisions and act.

I agree that as the FAA moves toward relying more and more on ADS-B, which requires WAAS data quality, the GPS recievers have to be more secure to reject any jamming inputs. Jamming can introduce false data into the GPS navigator, or totally block the signal.

BT

On Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:33:33 PM UTC-7, Greg Arnold wrote:
On 2/28/2013 6:00 PM, Don Johnstone wrote:

I sometimes wonder if some people have a grip on reality. The GPS system as

we know it is a military system, designed to help our forces in times of

conflict. We use it for free and over the years the civilian use has

improved, we no longer have position errors created by the system.

Given it's primary pupose do we really want the pilots who fight using the

system to experience jamming for the first time in real combat? Might it

not be a good idea to train for the eventuality in a realistic fashion? A

small inconvieniece to contests and soaring claims is a small price to pay

to save lives of military pilots and civilians who might collect an

explosive delivery if the first time they see a jammed GPS is in combat.

Stop whining about it, deal with it in an adult fashion for pitys sake.





Couldn't the military pilot accomplish the same thing just by turning

off the GPS on his plane?

"Couldn't the military pilot accomplish the same thing just by turning
off the GPS on his plane?"


I think GPS testing may also include misinformation broadcasted to confuse the enemy. While flying during GPS testing some soaring pilots have noticed position errors, up to one hundred miles or so.

Are we surprised?... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams

Did Churchill really have English scientists divert WW2 German aircraft so that they bombed Dublin? Just think what we could do with jammed GPS - precision guiding weapons to the wrong target!

Mike

On Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:00:24 PM UTC-8, Don Johnstone wrote:
We use it for free and over the years the civilian use has
improved, we no longer have position errors created by the system.

Uh, no, we do not use it for free, WE PAID FOR IT. I also seem to remember that, back in the 90s, there was an agreement that the Departments of Transportation and Commerce were to pay for specific upgrades to future blocks of satellites (now in orbit) out of their budgets, adding more civillian frequencies and localized satellite-based denial capability, in exchange the Department of Defense was going to limit the geographic scope and duration of this sort of testing within the boundaries of the US. We have now implemented such things as GPS precision approaches, ADS-B, GPS-aided positive train control systems, GPS-timed safety critical valve controls on gas pipelines, etc. Something is wrong with this picture...

On Thursday, February 28, 2013 10:40:01 PM UTC+1, Tom K (ES) wrote:
I like that the AF pilots are training with GPS jamming, it kinda makes it hard to drop a JDAM without it. They might have to do some of that "pilot sh*t".

"The Force, Luke, use the Force!"

Better still, a skilled WSO with a Sniper pod and the good old Laser Guided Bomb. Bonus is you get to see your target blow up in real time.

Best of all, guns. No one has yet found a way to jam a bullet...

As far as the argument that since we are taxpayers we therefore have paid for GPS and should have unrestricted access to it - Try that argument at your local air base and see if they let you jump into an F-16 and take it for a spin..."But I paid for it, dammit, so I got's the right to fly it! Now how do you start this thing?"

My position is that all my tax money was used to pay for GPS and LJDAMS and the military has my permission to jam it at will. Guys who complain about military GPS training, OTOH, their tax money paid for free cell phones for welfare moms and my retirement 8^)

Seriously, if the FAA wants to use GPS, then they are responsible for coordinating with the military for joint use.

Waiting for spring!!!

Kirk
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