2013 USA Competition Rules Published

John,

The accident at the Canadian Nationals cannot be directly linked to the finish procedure. It was an out-landing accident. Please stop using this as justification for higher finishes.

On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 5:16:00 PM UTC-6, Dave Springford wrote:
John,



The accident at the Canadian Nationals cannot be directly linked to the finish procedure. It was an out-landing accident. Please stop using this as justification for higher finishes.

As far as all the information I have, it was an outlanding accident about a mile from a finish ring with no minimum altitude for speed poiints. Of course we don't know what happened, and less what was in this pilots head, but this is exactly the scenario that has happened over and over again when pilots were encouraged to try for "speed points" by doing mac cready zero glides and popping over the fence. (In the szeged case, we know that is exactly what was going on)

The danger in the finish line and rolling finish has nothing to do with the finish itself. The danger, proved over and over again, is that blown final glides in which the pilot decides to land out starting at 300 feet or less lead to crash after crash.

I guess that's the problem - assumptions based on rumours, or incorrect information. The accident happened substantially further away than 1 mile and the pilot was never above glide slope to make the field at Macready zero.

On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 8:38:37 PM UTC-6, Dave Springford wrote:
I guess that's the problem - assumptions based on rumours, or incorrect information. The accident happened substantially further away than 1 mile and the pilot was never above glide slope to make the field at Macready zero.

Dave:

I talked to a number of pilots about this, and did my best to collect the available information. Please see the review on the 2012 contest safety report here

http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2012...y%20Review.pdf

If any of that is inaccurate, please let me know. The coordinates I was given put the crash 1.5 miles from the finish ring, and my understanding of Canadian rules at the time is that one gets speed points by landing out just inside the ring -- as IGC rules encourage as well (See Rick Sheppe's posts from Argentina)

Monitoring contest crashes and getting at least some sense of where we actually have problems is an important part of the RC's job. It's just as important to monitor so that we know where we don't have problems! There are lots of safety theories that just do not show up in the statistics.

When the trace becomes available, it will matter to that monitoring whether this was in fact an outlanding gone bad -- starting from a sensible pattern at 600 feet -- or whether it was a last-minute blown-final-glide affair. Neither is good. We have many crashes from outlandings and low thermaling, and these bear thought. But they are indeed a different category for us all to consider how to fly safer.

We have had lots and lots of crashes involving final glides that end a mile or two short of the airport. Please see "contest safety" for numbers and "safer finishes" for analysis, both here

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john...m#safety_rules

Whether the tragedy at Canadian nationals adds to that or to another category of (alas quite frequent) accidents, the numbers over decades bear out that managing MacCready zero plus or minus 300 feet over the ground is a very tricky affair

John Cochrane

John, I appreciate your concern with making finishes safer by eliminating "coffin corners" (MC 0 at 300'), but to me you are trying to eliminate the pilot from the equation a bit too much. Fine for Sports Class beginners, perhaps, but to me this is part of racing - accurately flown final glides, or landing out to avoid damage (can't win with a broken glider).

Just because you can finish at 50' with a line, doesn't make it smart - since now you only get distance points for a rolling finish, if you are on that MC0 and barely making it, you still have no incentive to push it. If you cant cross the line and fly a normal pattern (either cross at 500' and blend into traffic, or if alone, push down and cross at Vne and pull up - yes, because it's fun and gives all those working or watching on the ground something to see), the decision process is still there. Crossing the line at 50ft and 60 knots get you nothing but distance points and a warning from the CD for dangerous flying!

The point is, if the finish is "cross the runway then fly a safe pattern", then what I have to manage is getting across the runway high and/or fast enough for the existing conditions for a safe pattern and landing.

You don't like it. Fine. I do, but I'm not making the rules, so I'll finish whatever way is legal and safe.

See you at the races!

Cheers,

Kirk
66

On Thursday, March 7, 2013 11:08:41 AM UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:
John, I appreciate your concern with making finishes safer by eliminating "coffin corners" (MC 0 at 300'), but to me you are trying to eliminate the pilot from the equation a bit too much. Fine for Sports Class beginners, perhaps, but to me this is part of racing - accurately flown final glides, or landing out to avoid damage (can't win with a broken glider).



Just because you can finish at 50' with a line, doesn't make it smart - since now you only get distance points for a rolling finish, if you are on that MC0 and barely making it, you still have no incentive to push it. If you cant cross the line and fly a normal pattern (either cross at 500' and blend into traffic, or if alone, push down and cross at Vne and pull up - yes, because it's fun and gives all those working or watching on the ground something to see), the decision process is still there. Crossing the line at 50ft and 60 knots get you nothing but distance points and a warning from the CD for dangerous flying!



The point is, if the finish is "cross the runway then fly a safe pattern", then what I have to manage is getting across the runway high and/or fast enough for the existing conditions for a safe pattern and landing.



You don't like it. Fine. I do, but I'm not making the rules, so I'll finish whatever way is legal and safe.



See you at the races!



Cheers,



Kirk

66

Kirk: Though in fact the numbers show many crashes involving 50 feet, 50 knots, and no ideas, I don't actually push this issue, because I do think adequate pilot education can solve it. OK, I think I'm smart enough to do a rolling finish in this situation.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE FINISH. IT'S NOT ABOUT PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO FLY PATTERNS. It's about the marginal final glide that the low finish sets up. We give 1000 points on one side of a barbed wire fence and 600 points on the other side of that fence.

Here, all of us really are in a quandary. If you want to be competitive, you have to be prepared to end up at 50 knots 50 feet over the fence, and to make last-minute landouts from a straight in 53 knot 45+1:1 glide, ducking into fields from 300 feet or less when it does not work out. The numbers bear out that this is extraordinarily difficult, for pilots well past "sports class beginners." These crashes happen at nationals and worlds too.

Beginners are not the problem. Sports class beginners land out long before they get to the coffin corner. The problem is you and me, experienced pilots who have read all the great stories about pulling up to pop over the last tree line, and who know this is a neccessary part of a competitive pilots' toolkit if the rules allow it. Historically, many pilots like you and me have mishandled this situation.

Maybe you feel you have the skills to do it. I know I don't, even though I've studied this intensively (!), and I carefully scope all the fields near the airport. The end of a long contest flight with marginal final glide is a time that I know I am bad at split second risk my life or lose this contest decisions.

My view is simple: this is the sort of thing that if we all studied it, we would volunteer for. I agree not to beat you by flying in the clouds if you agree not to beat me by fly in the clouds. We'll agree to remove the artificial horizons so we know we're keeping the deal. I agree not beat you by landing out, racing back at 90 mph, reassemble and start again, if you agree not to beat me the same way. We'll agree to abide by that rule.

And, I agree not to beat you by popping over the fence at 10 feet after a harrowing glide over the quarry, if you agree not to beat me the same way.

The rules are, really, just a gentleman's agreement between pilots of this sort. And our rules process in the end does not keep things that the majority of pilots don't end up feeling this way about. If, having tried it both ways, the majority of pilots really wants to go back to the old days, then so it shall be.

Now, do you really want to do it? Make no mistake about it, the top 10 at nationals will indeed push the glide to the last field before the airport, will glide over fences at 10 feet, and those not willing to do it will lose. Do you really want to go back to making that a central part of the skills we measure, and are you willing to clean up the occasional mess that results?

John Cochrane

On Thursday, March 7, 2013 12:08:41 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
John, I appreciate your concern with making finishes safer by eliminating "coffin corners" (MC 0 at 300'), but to me you are trying to eliminate the pilot from the equation a bit too much. Fine for Sports Class beginners, perhaps, but to me this is part of racing - accurately flown final glides, or landing out to avoid damage (can't win with a broken glider).



Just because you can finish at 50' with a line, doesn't make it smart - since now you only get distance points for a rolling finish, if you are on that MC0 and barely making it, you still have no incentive to push it. If you cant cross the line and fly a normal pattern (either cross at 500' and blend into traffic, or if alone, push down and cross at Vne and pull up - yes, because it's fun and gives all those working or watching on the ground something to see), the decision process is still there. Crossing the line at 50ft and 60 knots get you nothing but distance points and a warning from the CD for dangerous flying!



The point is, if the finish is "cross the runway then fly a safe pattern", then what I have to manage is getting across the runway high and/or fast enough for the existing conditions for a safe pattern and landing.



You don't like it. Fine. I do, but I'm not making the rules, so I'll finish whatever way is legal and safe.



See you at the races!



Cheers,



Kirk

66

Um,
If a line is in use, you get speed points for a rolling finish (10.9.4).
"Rolling finish" has no meaning wrt a cylinder finish, the finish occurs at the cylinder boundary.
QT - RC Chair