IDF-Apache firing missiles on 67yr old civilian in wheelchair- at Sabra mosque in Gaza...

"Chad Irby" wrote :
Except that it didn't.

Oh, Yes they did. You can not neglect the history,

Osama bin Laden was "created" by the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and
was trained and funded by Middle Eastern states. The US was backing a
*different* crowd of guerillas in Afghanistan. You know - the ones who
*aren't* running around blowing up innocents around the world.

US trained end equipted directly or indirectly the same people which were
later known as Talibans. During history US put to power (directly or
indirectly) lot of dictators, and trained lot of people who later bacem
terrorists.
That is the fat and ther is no argue about it.

It's funny how often people try to blame the bad guys on the US, when
most of them came directly from failed *Soviet* programs and support.

Soviets as also American and their cold war conflict producet lot od
dictators and terrorists.

There's a reason the signature weapons of terrorists are the AK-47 and
the RPG.

AK-47 is cheap, reliable and on the market for 50 years. It is also
produced in lot of countries so it is very easy to get.

"Nicky" wrote in message
...
"Chad Irby" wrote :
Except that it didn't.



US trained end equipted directly or indirectly the same people which were
later known as Talibans.

No they trained and equipped the group that later became
The Northern Alliance and who were opposing the Taliban

In particular they supported Ahmed Shah Masood aka The Lion
of Panjshir who was assassinated by Al Qaeda suicide bombers
2 days before the Sept 11 terrorist attacks.

He was killed because they knew the US would turn to him
to lead the Afghan forces in any attempt to overthrow
the Taliban regime.

The Taliban emerged from the Pakistani ISI operations
and didnt appear on the scene until well after the Soviets
had withdrawn and the US lost interest in that country. The
one thing that the US and the rest of theWest can be blamed
for is not recognising earlier the threat to us posed by
the Taliban and their allies in Al Qaeda.

Keith

In article ,
"Nicky" wrote:

"Chad Irby" wrote :
Except that it didn't.

Oh, Yes they did. You can not neglect the history,

Well, I can *read* it. *You* can neglect it.

Osama bin Laden was "created" by the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and
was trained and funded by Middle Eastern states. The US was backing a
*different* crowd of guerillas in Afghanistan. You know - the ones who
*aren't* running around blowing up innocents around the world.

US trained end equipted directly or indirectly the same people which were
later known as Talibans.

Actually, the folks we backed were the guys the Taliban edged out to get
power after the USSR left. That's why the US didn't have any decent
connections in Afghanistan for 20 years.

During history US put to power (directly or indirectly) lot of
dictators, and trained lot of people who later bacem terrorists. That
is the fat and ther is no argue about it.

Funny how you can't seem to list "a lot" of them. We helped put some
dictators in, but I really can't think of any cases where we trained
folks who became world-class terrorists. The major players - PLO, Red
Brigades, et cetera - were all Soviet proteges.

Yeah, we backed some bad folks. But the thing to remember is that the
USSR was backing *worse* ones during the same time period. We also had
a tendency to train people how to fight wars, while the USSR defaulted
to training them how to commit acts of terror.

It's funny how often people try to blame the bad guys on the US, when
most of them came directly from failed *Soviet* programs and support.

Soviets as also American and their cold war conflict producet lot od
dictators and terrorists.

Look at the list, and get back to us. All of the worst folks around
right now are old Soviet clients.

There's a reason the signature weapons of terrorists are the AK-47 and
the RPG.

AK-47 is cheap, reliable and on the market for 50 years. It is also
produced in lot of countries so it is very easy to get.

Especially when the USSR gives them to you and shows you how to use them.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

"Chad Irby" wrote:

Actually, the folks we backed were the guys the Taliban edged out to get
power after the USSR left. That's why the US didn't have any decent
connections in Afghanistan for 20 years.

That is beacuse US didn't have any interes for Afganistan when Rusians
left. US trained them, equipted and left them. And when Talibans turned
against their former allies US decided to kick them.
When they fight against Russians they are freedom fighters and when they
fight against US they are terrorists. Yeah right :-)

Funny how you can't seem to list "a lot" of them. We helped put some
dictators in, but I really can't think of any cases where we trained

Dictators which were (are) supported by US:
Pinochet (Chile)
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/...8/nsaebb8i.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/chile/stor...038615,00.html

Sadam (Iraq)
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/09.1...wk.us.iraq.htm

Musharaf (Pakistan)

Gen. José Alberto Medrano (El Salvador)
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Pr...News_1984.html
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Pr...News_1984.html

Somoza (Nicaragua)
http://home.sandiego.edu/~acase/nic.htm)

Julio Cesar Mendez Montenegro (Guatemala)
http://www.isp.nwu.edu/~fprefect/politics/timeline.html

You can see there are more then few terrorist and dictatros which were US
puppets. US was (is) supporting state terrorism mainly through their
intellegence agencies.

Yeah, we backed some bad folks. But the thing to remember is that the
USSR was backing *worse* ones during the same time period. We also had
a tendency to train people how to fight wars, while the USSR defaulted
to training them how to commit acts of terror.
Look at the list, and get back to us. All of the worst folks around
right now are old Soviet clients.

LOL
You are funny !
You argue whose methods were more dirty; US mehods or SSSR methods.
The truth is tht US was/is at least as much dirty as SSSR (or vice versa).

Especially when the USSR gives them to you and shows you how to use them.

Or Especially when US give you and helps you to produce chemical weapon and
shows You how do use it against Iranians ;-)

"Nicky" wrote in message
...
"Chad Irby" wrote:

Actually, the folks we backed were the guys the Taliban edged out to get
power after the USSR left. That's why the US didn't have any decent
connections in Afghanistan for 20 years.

That is beacuse US didn't have any interes for Afganistan when Rusians
left. US trained them, equipted and left them. And when Talibans turned
against their former allies US decided to kick them.
When they fight against Russians they are freedom fighters and when they
fight against US they are terrorists. Yeah right :-)


The Taliban didnt EXIST when the Soviets were around. It emerged as a
movement in 1994, several years after the USSR had ceased to exist
let alone occupy Afghanistan.

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote :

The Taliban didnt EXIST when the Soviets were around. It emerged as a
movement in 1994, several years after the USSR had ceased to exist
let alone occupy Afghanistan.

They only had a different name.
Mudjahedins, and then they were called freedom fighters :-)

"Nicky" wrote in message
...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote :

The Taliban didnt EXIST when the Soviets were around. It emerged as a
movement in 1994, several years after the USSR had ceased to exist
let alone occupy Afghanistan.

They only had a different name.
Mudjahedins, and then they were called freedom fighters :-)


Some Mujahedinn joined the Taliban others joined the Northern Alliance.
The Taliban as such didnt exist when the Soviets occupied Afghanistan

Keith

Some Mujahedinn joined the Taliban others joined the Northern Alliance.
The Taliban as such didnt exist when the Soviets occupied Afghanistan

Keith

There was also the native Afghan muj, and the Arab muj, it was not just one
cohesive group.

The Arabs were much more radical and for them it was a relgious battle, for the
Afghans it was getting their country back.

It is a vast oversimplification when people group the Mujahadeed into just one
group, and just treat the later Taliban, as just the Muj that was renamed.
The Afghan muj did not run the country very well, and this helped the Paki
inspired and assisted Taliban to come in, under the guide of returning law and
order to the country. The old Afghan admin retreated to the northern part, and
because the Northern Alliance.

Taliban was not a homegrown creation, although it did play on the fears and
lack of education of many Afghans.
Pakistans ISI was becoming more and more involved with the radical and foreign
elements of the anti soviet resistance, so towards the latter part of the war,
our (US) assistance was going straight to afghan muj, as opposed to going thru
Pakistani intelligence like had been the case.

One of the less talked about aspects of the 2001 Afghan war, was the numbers of
Pakistani troops that were in Afghanistan when hostilities commenced.
Apparently there were quite a few PAF C-130 flights to get their troops out.


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

In article ,
"Nicky" wrote:

"Chad Irby" wrote:

Actually, the folks we backed were the guys the Taliban edged out to get
power after the USSR left. That's why the US didn't have any decent
connections in Afghanistan for 20 years.

That is beacuse US didn't have any interes for Afganistan when Rusians
left. US trained them, equipted and left them. And when Talibans turned
against their former allies US decided to kick them.
When they fight against Russians they are freedom fighters and when they
fight against US they are terrorists. Yeah right :-)

Funny how you can't seem to list "a lot" of them. We helped put some
dictators in, but I really can't think of any cases where we trained

Dictators which were (are) supported by US:
Pinochet (Chile)
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/...8/nsaebb8i.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/chile/stor...038615,00.html

The situation in Chile wasn't so much supporting Pinochet as opposing
Allende, and our efforts there were pretty thin. And after three years,
his own military tossed Allende out on his ear, because his government
was *worse* than the dictator he beat.

Overall, one of the worst self-inflicted losses of Communism.

Sadam (Iraq)
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/09.1...wk.us.iraq.htm

A quote from that piece: "America did not put Saddam in power."

Musharaf (Pakistan)

Another Soviet boy, who only started paying attention to the US after
the USSR went broke.

Gen. José Alberto Medrano (El Salvador)
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Pr...News_1984.html

Supported, but only because of the Soviet and Cuban efforts. Not even
that much, on our side.

Somoza (Nicaragua)
http://home.sandiego.edu/~acase/nic.htm)

Yep, the Somoza family had been our guy for a long time, until tossed
out by (once again) a Cuban-backed group.

Are you seeing the pattern yet?

Julio Cesar Mendez Montenegro (Guatemala)
http://www.isp.nwu.edu/~fprefect/politics/timeline.html

You can see there are more then few terrorist and dictatros which were US
puppets.

....versus about a hundred that were (and are) Soviet ones. Africa alone
beats that list by a factor of ten or so, and the aftereffects of those
moves are still killing people by the thousands.

You also need to understand that giving someone support versus Communism
does not make them a "puppet," which implies that we controlled them
completely. Mostly, our efforts around the world ended up as an
advisory deal, versus the Soviet model of "do as we say."


US was (is) supporting state terrorism mainly through their
intellegence agencies.

Pretty minor, overall.

Yeah, we backed some bad folks. But the thing to remember is that the
USSR was backing *worse* ones during the same time period. We also had
a tendency to train people how to fight wars, while the USSR defaulted
to training them how to commit acts of terror.
Look at the list, and get back to us. All of the worst folks around
right now are old Soviet clients.

LOL
You are funny !
You argue whose methods were more dirty; US mehods or SSSR methods.

The USSR, by a huge amount.

The truth is tht US was/is at least as much dirty as SSSR (or vice versa).

I'm sorry, but you're out of your mind. Or have you never read any
history over the last five decades or so? Stalin killed more of his
*own* people than were killed in all of the wars from 1900 to 2004.

Especially when the USSR gives them to you and shows you how to use them.

Or Especially when US give you and helps you to produce chemical weapon and
shows You how do use it against Iranians ;-)

Except that the people who sold that gear to them were the Soviets, the
French, and the Germans. And the French even sold them a nuclear
reactor to make bombs with.

The US never sold the Iraqis chemical *or* biological weapons, nor the
gear to use it.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

"Chad Irby" wrote

A quote from that piece: "America did not put Saddam in power."

Please read the whole article !

"But during the cold war, America competed with the Soviets for Saddam's
attention and welcomed his war with the religious fanatics of Iran. Having
cozied up to Saddam, Washington found it hard to break away-even after going
to war with him in 1991." etc., etc., etc.,

Another Soviet boy, who only started paying attention to the US after
the USSR went broke.

First US caled Musharaf a dictaor which he is. After he give America support
in war in Afganistan he became "democrat" over night.
A democrat, Yeah right...

Are you seeing the pattern yet?

Yes, I see. US has its fingers in creating/supporting (along with soviets)
majority of world's terrorists and dictators.

And these are just few of them.

You also need to understand that giving someone support versus Communism
does not make them a "puppet," which implies that we controlled them
completely. Mostly, our efforts around the world ended up as an
advisory deal, versus the Soviet model of "do as we say."

Please, CIA and State Department was creating politics in those countries
and these guy were their actors.

CIA had their fingers in most of the Latin America countries.

I'm sorry, but you're out of your mind. Or have you never read any
history over the last five decades or so? Stalin killed more of his
*own* people than were killed in all of the wars from 1900 to 2004.

He was mostly killing their own people, US was killing others or have their
plyers to kill in their name.
US bombings of Cambodia killed near 500,000 civilians, US bombings of Laos
killed 350,000 civilans
Do You know just, how many civilans did US kill in Vietnam ?

Except that the people who sold that gear to them were the Soviets, the
French, and the Germans. And the French even sold them a nuclear
reactor to make bombs with.

The US never sold the Iraqis chemical *or* biological weapons, nor the
gear to use it.

You are ignorant!
Along with those country US has it's part in creating Iraq's WMD program.

"The U.S. companies listed, some of which have facilities in Silicon Valley,
include Spectra Physics, Honeywell, Dupont, Eastman Kodak, Bechtel,
Tektronix, Unisys, Rockwell and Hewlett-Packard. They allegedly provided
materials for Iraq's rocket program, planned nuclear weapons program and
conventional weapons program, which includes military logistics as well as
supplies and materials for building weapons plants.
The complete list included 24 companies with home bases in the United
States, along with 50 subsidiaries of foreign companies that conducted their
arms business with Iraq from within U.S. borders.
In addition to these companies, another group designated in the report as
Iraq's arms suppliers includes the U.S. Ministries of Defense, Energy, Trade
and Agriculture, as well as Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos and Sandia
National laboratories."

"According to newly declassified documents mentioned in the Washington Post
Weekly Edition (Jan. 6-12, 2003), Iraq was already using chemical weapons on
an "almost daily basis" when Donald Rumsfeld met with Saddam Hussein in
1983, consolidating the U.S.-Iraq military alliance.
Subsequently, the Pentagon supplied logistical and military support; U.S.
banks provided billions of dollars in credits; and the CIA, using a Chilean
conduit, increased Saddam's supply of cluster bombs. U.S. companies also
supplied steel tubes and chemical substances, the types of material for
which the Security Council is now searching.
As late as 1989 and 1990, according to a report from U.S. Representative
Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio), U.S. companies, under permits from the first Bush
administration, sent mustard gas materials, live cultures for
bacteriological research, to Iraq. U.S. companies helped Iraq build a
chemical weapons factory, and then shipped Hussein a West Nile virus,
hydrogen cyanide precursors and parts for a new nuclear plant."

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/me...iraq-0308.html