Soaring Community Consumer Warning

Bill has some good ideas and is well on the way to implementing them. And Sean has raised some valid questions, too (the law of averages at work here)..

Leveraging social media may make sense but as a digital business consultant myself (albeit a hopelessly elderly and senile one), one of my first questions for a client who's dead set on using social media ("We must have social media; the CEO wants it") is: what do you want to accomplish? If the set of potential buyers is very small and they predictably all consult the same few sites to see the same very small number of "for sale" glider ads, how can we add value through social media, value that can't be added in other ways. Otherwise, we risk the old "it's a solution looking for a problem" scenario.

A simple Facebook feed is messy; e.g., GliderSource's Facebook ads are interspersed with news items in chronological (not category) order because they're posted to a timeline. It's easy to find the most recent ads (also on GliderSource.com itself) but not so easy to find a specific type of glider. Plus it appears there's no expire function: 6 of the first 10 ads I clicked displayed "Sorry, The ad you are looking for (item name) is no longer available," forcing me to close the new window in each case and go back to browsing. Not all bad (though nicer than Bill's new competitor Sean's Facebook page) but still probably not going to "destroy" every other soaring want ad site in a year, much less a week.

I'd also venture to say that most pilots looking for a used glider don't even know what an RSS feed is, for example, though I think it's great that Bill (sorry for picking on him--I like most things about his site) offers a lot of choices for communicating information to potential buyers. If I were in the market for a new/used glider--which I have been, on average, every 15-20 years, I'd definitely go to the GliderSource site to look. That's because I suspect there are some gliders there that aren't on the Wings & Wheels site. We know there's one (Bob's Genesis) although, interestingly, it's also on Soaring Cafe's site. So if that's true across the board, why would I need to go to both of those sites? Hmmm.

On the other hand, I'd HAVE to go to Wings & Wheels because that site has ads that don't appear elsewhere. Ironically, Tim has done the rest of his competitors a huge favor: i.e., their sites (or at least some of them) will be visited by interested buyers because there is no single site that holds every listing. Because of this, some of these guys are smart enough to shut up and not try to shame or browbeat Tim into changing his alleged policy.

If I were selling a glider--which I do about as often as I buy one--I would probably just put it up on Tim's site, for the same reason: it's the one site I know people will visit because it has "original content"; i.e., stuff they won't find anywhere else.

Would I regret or resent that Tim might not allow me to post my ad elsewhere? [he has never responded to this thread so we don't really know what his policy is] Maybe. Having more placements out there is better for the seller.. But would I try to harangue him into allowing me to do something he didn't permit on his free site and lecture him about how much better it would be for the soaring community and how it's rude and stupid to do otherwise? I used to try this with my parents. They didn't hang up on me but I suspect they wanted to once or twice.

Sorry guys, but since we weren't on the phone call between Tim and Bob, we don't really know what went down and who, if anyone, was "rude" to whom.

At least Tim doesn't condescend to us, telling us how we're so hopelessly backward that we can't possibly understand the brilliance of his ideas (or refute them). Actually, soaring comprises a great bunch of people. I can't imagine anyone doing that. Certainly I can't imagine anyone on this forum responding to valid criticism with "kiss my ass".

Well, maybe one or two.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

Chip, lets wait a year and see what my 6 minutes (and 20 minutes a week) becomes...

Good luck on your business.

Just a couple of notes in regards to the points that Chip brings up:
Facebook page
It certainly has its limits. I don't even attempt to post all the info, just a teaser usually the title and subtitle of the item (most is caught by the auto-posting link available on each ad's page), and maybe some other info (e.g., price) thrown in. It's all manual (ugh!) and not sortable, just a jumble. A facebook page doesn't make a good database. Granted I haven't even attempted to keep up with the ads that are taken down for whatever reason (sold, etc). BUT, if somebody's following GS on Facebook they can get an advisory when I post something new, and maybe they'll come and check it out.

Technology for technology sake.
The technology I use is a tool to provide the functions that I wanted. User friendly self posting and edit, automatic photo resizing, displaying the number of ads in each category, contact/messaging feature, detailed hit counters, anti-spam, video embedding, sorting, searching, building that cool google map (ok, I did that one just for fun), and management of the site with minimal manual daily work. It's like being on autopilot. It does everything pretty much automatically, I just have to monitor it, talk on the radio, and tweak the heading knob every once in a while.

RSS Feed
I know most people don't know what that its. That's OK. But it is another way for folks to see what's the most recent entries on glidersource.com. If they use a reader to read other feeds (e.g., news, etc) then it might work well for them. The feed is generated automatically whenever the user's reader calls the URL. So, once the programming for that was done, it's all hands off. I am NOT hand coding xml with every new listing, please!

Tim's site is the 800 pound gorilla in the glider ad category. Oh well. But I think you'll find that glidersource.com has the most comprehensive list of instruments, equipment, and other non-aircraft stuff (over 60 items at this time). I would assume that providing free ads for these items would conflict with "the retail operation", plus all the extra manual work.

(Bob's Genesis)[on glidersource.com] although, interestingly, it's also on Soaring Cafe's site
I don't see this as some kind of incongruency.
Bill Elliot, of Soaring Cafe, and I have conversed on several occasions and we support each other's efforts. We're both about helping folks buy and sell their stuff. Like I say on my home page: "Successful advertisers across many industries place their ads in many places, not just one." I think SC has its own niche audience (more contest oriented from my experience). I don't happen to care for the Wordpress plugin's format and paging that SC uses, so I wrote mine to work how I like. But neither of us are going to complain about an ad being on more than one website, much less checking to be sure they're not.

Ernst "Oh, what about get in your gliders that you purchased from wherever and have a good flight. "
I did go flying today! My first 1-26 flight. 10 ads posted automatically to glidersource.com while I was out there. Everything from tires to barographs - check it out at: http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?action=recent

Money quote:

"I did go flying today! My first 1-26 flight. 10 ads posted automatically to glidersource.com while I was out there."

Well done, Bill. I like your site.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneWantAds

100 likes and 1200 views in 2 days.

Free. No requirements at all.

Feel welcomed to post your for sale ad here. I suggest copying and pasting any other ad you have into your Facebook picture submission. You can even include a link to other ads such as glidersource or soaring cafe. I would also suggest adding a link to the Facebook glider want ads post to those ad sites. People can then easily like or share or comment about the ad to friends which is a very powerful capability in making the decision to buy something as important as a glider. These prospective buyers also can easily contact you about your glider via Facebook. Also very powerful...

Perhaps the light bulbs are flickering for some of you who don't get social media marketing? :-). One can hope...

Enjoy!

I would like to point out some obvious facts. First, 25 years ago we didn’t have the Internet & Facebook. We had the Soaring magazine, newspaper classified ads and Trade-a-plane. Technology improved and today we have all of these sources (and more). 25 years from now there will be more of the same. Change. Some formats will disappear and new ones will take their place. Personally, I don’t think Facebook is particularly effective selling tool because it isn’t designed as such. That doesn’t mean that tomorrow Facebook won’t change a bit to make it a great place to source or advertise product. Time will tell.

I will wade in on the comments about the soaring community telling a small businessman how to run his/her business. Soaring is a very niche market. We aren’t talking Walmart or used cars here. These folks derive their livelihood from selling products. If they can generate additional traffic through their “store” and increase sales by requiring exclusivity on used glider for sale ads, I’m all for it. That is being creative. And speaking of used cars, how many of you think you should be able to go to single source and see all used car offerings? Yet you are demanding this for gliders? All I can say is wow (add adjectives describing negative aspects of human behavior).

DWI (Navy SEAL lingo for deal with it) and then go buy a glider.

If they can generate additional traffic through their “store” and increase sales by requiring exclusivity on used glider for sale ads, I’m all for it. That is being creative.

Craig: it's being creative IF the exclusivity requirement is stated UP FRONT and not invoked AFTER compliance with the actual stated policy.

Go back a read the incident facts. Here's to hoping you don't have a vendor change the deal to suit themselves and their "creative" version of exclusivity after you, in good faith and understanding, complied with the original version. I'm so sure you'll take that as fair and equitable business on their part and depart with a smile on your face.

Go back a read the incident facts. Here's to hoping you don't have a vendor change the deal to suit themselves and their "creative" version of exclusivity after you, in good faith and understanding, complied with the original version. I'm so sure you'll take that as fair and equitable business on their part and depart with a smile on your face.


Bob, This has happened to me hundreds of times in my career. Being a professional Category Manager/Buyer in retail and dealing daily with Salesmen for almost 25 years, you tend to expect it... (not to say there aren't many above board Salesmen, but there are those that will say or do anything to get what they want).

Ever buy products from Nike or Walmart? (there are many others, but I’ll stop there) Feel ok with those purchases? Do you shop them on occasion? Do your family and friends utilize their products or services? Well, if what was stated earlier at W&W upsets you, then you would never buy from either Nike or Walmart again.... EVER. Being a direct competitor with Walmart and friends of many corporate Nike employees, I have direct and supplier information relating to both companies. In comparison, stuff that they have done in the past makes removing a glider ad absolutely irrelevant. We are talking millions of dollars, putting many many companies out of business, and disrupting the lives/careers of thousands.

The point is that most businesses do many things patrons won’t approve of (including my company). This circumstance just happened to be reported. If you get indignant over this and then carried this over to your daily lives, then you will have few places to shop, services to use.

And if we get down to brass tacks, I’d bet the statistics (easily manipulated by the way/been there, done that) show that viewing the soaring classified ads is more about personal fantasy or killing time than actually buying a glider (NOT that this changes the relevance of this thread). The web traffic and company recognition is still valid for the retailer no matter why the ads are viewed.

You may dislike what happened at W&W, but let’s prioritize a bit on getting upset. This example is “small potatoes”.

On 4/2/2013 8:59 AM, Craig R. wrote:
If they can generate additional traffic through their “store” and
increase sales by requiring exclusivity on used glider for sale ads,
I’m all for it.

"IF" is the operative word here. How often do glider pilots buy or sell
a used glider? The last time I did that was 18 years ago, and I didn't
advertise anywhere but our regional newsletter, finally selling it to an
out-of-state friend by word-of-mouth. A lot more people, like me, buy
instruments, soaring computers, tape, tires, and other stuff every year,
and Tim's used glider ads aren't getting us to his site.

Personally, I like Tim, and I've bought things from him for many years,
but his site is the last place I go when I'm looking for stuff. It's
worse than unattractive because of the slapped together, multi-colored
"style", and hard to read with everything center-justified. A few
times, when I really wanted to peruse a page, I've put the page into an
html editor so I could re-format it before it made me nuts.

I think Tim is focusing on a tree (exclusive glider ads) and not the
forest (his overall business). I hope he finds somebody with the ability
to design a website that's attractive and easy to use, then takes their
advice!

Next step: make it more informative. "Informative" is why I always start
at Cumulus Soaring, but Wings & Wheels doesn't have to match that, just
do better than now.

Finally, talk to that web person about website statistics, so he can see
how many people are coming to his site, what they are looking at, when
they bail out and when they complete a purchase instead. If it's
possible, he could start with statistics for his current site. It might
be a real eye-opener, and would also let him measure the changes in
traffic and the number buying.

My guess is lots of people click in but leave soon after. But why guess
when statistics are easy to get?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 11:59:28 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:
And speaking of used cars, how many of you think you should be able to go to single source and see all used car offerings? Yet you are demanding this for gliders?

Try it this way... if you list a car for sale on Craig's List do you expect to find your listing removed because you have also advertised it on ebay? Of course not.

T8