Soaring Community Consumer Warning

Kevin,

It is not in my nature to "tow the party" line due to fear of potential grudges. I will always be honest and tell you how I feel whether Popular or not. I have absolutely no regrets about any of the arguments I have participated in on RAS. Quite the opposite.

Thanks for the complement. And I appreciate what your trying to say. But, if my wife and I are alone at a contest we would laugh about it and enjoy each others company without the slightest regret. We are friendly to everyone becuase we hold no grudges if we disagree on a small point.

The good news is that we have had no such issue however. It's been quite the opposite at contest for us. We really enjoy the social aspects in fact.

Back on topic. Tim should to stand up for himself and state his Wings and Wheels Want Ads policy either here, on his website or both.

As of this moment we have no real knowledge of what his policy is with wings and wheels in reference to these rumored terms and conditions. Only speculation. As of this moment, nothing on his website mentions anything about such a policy. What else do we have to go on?

He could clear it up so easily....but all I hear are crickets........ ........... ........... ............ .......... ............ ..........

Tim? Will you go on the record? What is the Wings and Wheels policy in regards to other want ads web sites?

Thanks in advance.

Sean

Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy?

https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneForSaleWantAds?ref=hl

On Friday, April 5, 2013 5:57:25 PM UTC-4, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy? https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneForSaleWantAds?ref=hl

Tim's policy is as described above. He sees no reason to provide space for gliders already advertised somewhere else. He repeated this to me yesterday when I was ordering from him.
And wisely, he is not going to engage you on RAS.
Sean, acting like a bully, which is what you are looking like to me, is not a good thing.
UH

On Friday, April 5, 2013 4:21:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, April 5, 2013 5:57:25 PM UTC-4, Sean F (F2) wrote:

Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy? https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneForSaleWantAds?ref=hl



Tim's policy is as described above. He sees no reason to provide space for gliders already advertised somewhere else. He repeated this to me yesterday when I was ordering from him.

And wisely, he is not going to engage you on RAS.

Sean, acting like a bully, which is what you are looking like to me, is not a good thing.

UH

On Friday, April 5, 2013 4:21:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, April 5, 2013 5:57:25 PM UTC-4, Sean F (F2) wrote:

Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy? https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneForSaleWantAds?ref=hl



Tim's policy is as described above. He sees no reason to provide space for gliders already advertised somewhere else. He repeated this to me yesterday when I was ordering from him.

And wisely, he is not going to engage you on RAS.

Sean, acting like a bully, which is what you are looking like to me, is not a good thing.

UH

Ditto....I agree. 6PK

Hank, It's meaningless that Tim supposedly repeated this to you. I appreciate that you're trying to communicate his business policy for him (as he refuses to do). But he should be willing to state his business policies proudly, on his website in full detail. How do we really know what he is saying? What exactly are the terms? Why does he not change his website to define these terms if they indeed exist?

Let me point out that I believe Tim has always been a knowledgable resource who I generally respected. I agree wings and wheels has been strong for want ads. I also dont like this apparent policy requiring exclusivity. I dont really know what to believe. On this point, in regards to this incedent, Tim appears to have thown a long time customer of his off his ad site unless that customer bowed to his demand (completely out of the blue) that he remove all other want ads from any other soaring related website. I personally feel is very, very disturbing if it happened anything like that..

Sure, Tim (as owner of the Wings & Wheels website) can do what he wants. But he should, at the same time, make what he is doing (his terms and conditions and business policy) clear to all of his customers by publishing his T&C on his website. He should not make his policy up out of the blue as I feel he likely did with this customer. I have certainly never heard of this policy before.

This kind of thing (the incedent described by an upset customer who has no reason to make it up) does bother people (even though Tim's friends are defending him vigorously). The policy (if its real) itself will bother many on its own. And his continued silence on the issue is very peculiar. Frankly, his silence and refusal to publish his terms (if they exist) creates a certain amount of doubt regarding his business ethics.

Tim, please state your complete wings and wheels want ads terms and conditions openly, publicly and proudly for all of us so we know exactly where you stand. You should not be fearful of stating your business policies here or on your website, right? Why do you appear fearful? Why are you letting others speak for you? You should stand behind your policies as your friends say you do (do you?) and be happy to explain them and add them to your website.

It's the right thing to do and until you do we will have doubts. Thats not at all what we want. Please do the right thing so we can move on without unanswered questions about your policy and requirements for placing want ads on your site. What actions, exactly, will you decide to remove them?

Sincerely,,

Sean

Currently stated wings abs wheels conditions. notice the statement about not accepting any for of compensation....

Link: http://www.wingsandwheels.com/wantads1.htm

Text:
Wings & Wheels "Want Ad's"
Your Want Ad listed for FREE!
Please do not send ad's as attachments,
or in WORD or other document formats, just simply email (sorry no ads accepted by mail post) the ad in the email body as plain text in one paragraph without unnecessary capitals, exclamation points, underline or italics and unformatted without indents or separated lines. All Advertisements must include an email address for contact.
Optionally, include one image to be sent only as a JPEG attachment. (ONE IMAGE ONLY), please do not send composite images since images may have to be cut down for display.
All Ads are completely free of charge! Ads run for 90 days or until I receive notice from the seller that the airplane or item has been sold. Ads can be renewed to run additional 90 days if I receive notification prior to ad expiration and removal. There is no limit on the number or times ads can be renewed, again, always free of charge, however, any ad that is cancelled or removed for failure to notify to renew must remain off the Wings & Wheels want-ads for at least 90 days in order to avoid those wanting to re-list in a more favorable position. As always, there is never any charge for the listing and Wings & Wheels does not request nor will accept any commission or compensation for this service.
I only ask that you please send notice when your sailplane, trailer, airplane or part has been sold or your wanted ad is no longer needed.
email your ad to:

These ads are intended for private sellers only, not for other aircraft dealers, Brokers, Resellers or Commercial vendors!

At 23:21 05 April 2013, wrote:
On Friday, April 5, 2013 5:57:25 PM UTC-4, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy?
https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneForSaleWantAds?ref=hl

Tim's policy is as described above. He sees no reason to provide space
for
gliders already advertised somewhere else. He repeated this to me
yesterday
when I was ordering from him.
And wisely, he is not going to engage you on RAS.
Sean, acting like a bully, which is what you are looking like to me, is
not
a good thing.
UH

I apologise for pouring cold water on your statement that the policy of W&W
has been explained to you, you know the policy because you have been told
it. What of the rest of us, more importantly, what about future customers
and the people who do not acess ras who place an ad, do they know the
policy. Where can they learn of it before placing their ad?
The original complaint made two points.

1 That placing an ad elsewhere would result in the original ad on W&W being
removed. Whilst I have grave reservations about the wisdom of such a policy
I would agree that W&W have the right to impose such a policy if they see
fit, no question.
2. That the ad placer had placed an ad not knowing of the policy because he
had not been told up front. That in my opion is inexcusable and cannot be
justified. What is the point of keeping such a policy secret?

It is the second point which would warn me off ever dealing with such an
orgnisation, whoever they were. Secrecy and undisclosed conditions on any
"contract" do not engender trust and no sane person would normally enter
into any transaction with someone they did not trust.
Maintaining a dignified silence when critisism is made is fine, laudible
even, unless you are in the business where you want people to spent their
hard earned cash with you, and that is what business is all about.
Just to be clear I do not support Sean either, taking advantage of anothers
misfortune is a very unpleasant trait.

Exactly right.

Well not entirely folks!

I have no pony in the race. Don't live in the USA, etc. So as an
outsider I have nothing to win or lose either way.

However - I have dealt with a couple of the Gentlemen, (and I do use the
word advisedly) involved in supplying glider equipment in the USA.

When I have supported the USA internet vendors, All have been
knowledgeable, courteous and provided service well beyond what economy
would indicate.

On the subject of the person placing their ad not knowing the
conditions. I respectfully submit that they can reasonably have been
expected to read the first page of Tim's admittedly busy site:
It is all there in bright colours and huge fonts on -

http://www.wingsandwheels.com/wantads1.htm

So - my suggestion is that this lamentable failure of courtesy should stop.
IF you have a personal issue with someone - don't support that person.
If you have been offensive enough to trigger one of them losing interest
in you as a person and customer - I would be too ashamed to trumpet it
publicly. Their reputation is for decades of informed, courteous service
to soaring. Yours is for ?

Tim and others do what they do as a free service to soaring. All of the
sites are some combination of old, ugly, foreign, complex etc.
Conversely, wingsandwheels.com gets around 33600 hits a month so he must
be doing something right...

If you think you can do something better than Tim - well go on and DO
it. Want to make automated advert posting a reality - why not offer to
do it on Wings and Wheels to extend/return the favour on the same terms?

Don't rant and fuss about what you feel is wrong with what he does and
attack his integrity in this forum.
It does nothing for your reputation. - Well OK so far it gives you a
reputation as a cyber bully with an aversion to reading and an inflated
sense of entitlement.
Not something to aspire to I would think.

Keep it constructive everyone?

/homily

Bruce

On 2013/04/07 3:46 PM, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Exactly right.


--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771