Soaring Community Consumer Warning

On Friday, April 5, 2013 5:57:25 PM UTC-4, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy? https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneForSaleWantAds?ref=hl

Tim's policy is as described above. He sees no reason to provide space for gliders already advertised somewhere else. He repeated this to me yesterday when I was ordering from him.
And wisely, he is not going to engage you on RAS.
Sean, acting like a bully, which is what you are looking like to me, is not a good thing.
UH

On Friday, April 5, 2013 4:21:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, April 5, 2013 5:57:25 PM UTC-4, Sean F (F2) wrote:

Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy? https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneForSaleWantAds?ref=hl



Tim's policy is as described above. He sees no reason to provide space for gliders already advertised somewhere else. He repeated this to me yesterday when I was ordering from him.

And wisely, he is not going to engage you on RAS.

Sean, acting like a bully, which is what you are looking like to me, is not a good thing.

UH

On Thursday, March 21, 2013 7:34:09 AM UTC-7, BobD wrote:
I like many others understand that the glider community is small, and perhaps getting smaller. In trying to sell my glider, I placed an ad on Tim Mara's Wings and Wheels. He states on his website that he offers this for free to help the community. Or so I thought.



Selling a glider is a difficult task, especially in this economy and to a niche interest group. As for me, I'm buying a new glider and need funding from the sale of my present ship. I do all this on a tight budget. So letting the soaring community know about my offering is a marketing effort of importance and I know that to be successful, I need to cover the bases. Not everyone will see an ad in one given location. Coverage is the issue.



I've placed the same advertising offering on SoaringCafe.com's marketplace page. I used the same information there as I did on Wings and Wheels. I've also put the same details here on RAS, and I will likely put them on the SSA paid website marketing pages and anywhere else I feel is appropriate for seeking buyers. I simply want to sell my glider.



I've been a customer of Tim's and have spent a lot of money with his enterprise. Which is why I was stunned when he emailed me back saying I cannot duplicate my ad on SoaringCafe and he would pull mine off Wings and Wheels if I didn't discontinue the SoaringCafe ad. His message was "I don't allow it"...period.



Why would someone who should know the value of a customer, and the small scale of our community, do that? Anyone know why? When I called him he was indignant and said the policy was in his reply email to me AFTER the ad went up. Such a policy is not stated ANYWHERE on his website. It makes no sense since SoaringCafe is not in competition with Wings and Wheels other than advertising other vendors, who pay for that visibility. SoaringCafe's web presence it different.



Tim notified me yesterday that the ad was being removed since I hadn't complied with his demand (24 hours after making it). In calling him to discuss it, he was indignant with me, refused to listen, and hung up. Nice going Tim, you just lost a customer who will now exercise his consumer rights and inform the community of your detrimental decision that undermines my effort to sell my glider. And yes, I will use the internet bully pulpit to let the community know of your attitude towards that community. Hats of to SoaringCafe and goodbye to Wings and Wheels. Honoring and valuing your customers doesn't seem to be in Tim's business plan. I can't think of a worse business attitude.



Beware soaring community of those who make it tough on you…like hanging up on you and not listening. Instead, patronize those who go the extra mile and work with you.



Bob DeLeon

Glider pilot and owner since 1997

On Friday, April 5, 2013 4:21:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, April 5, 2013 5:57:25 PM UTC-4, Sean F (F2) wrote:

Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy? https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneForSaleWantAds?ref=hl



Tim's policy is as described above. He sees no reason to provide space for gliders already advertised somewhere else. He repeated this to me yesterday when I was ordering from him.

And wisely, he is not going to engage you on RAS.

Sean, acting like a bully, which is what you are looking like to me, is not a good thing.

UH

Ditto....I agree. 6PK

Hank, It's meaningless that Tim supposedly repeated this to you. I appreciate that you're trying to communicate his business policy for him (as he refuses to do). But he should be willing to state his business policies proudly, on his website in full detail. How do we really know what he is saying? What exactly are the terms? Why does he not change his website to define these terms if they indeed exist?

Let me point out that I believe Tim has always been a knowledgable resource who I generally respected. I agree wings and wheels has been strong for want ads. I also dont like this apparent policy requiring exclusivity. I dont really know what to believe. On this point, in regards to this incedent, Tim appears to have thown a long time customer of his off his ad site unless that customer bowed to his demand (completely out of the blue) that he remove all other want ads from any other soaring related website. I personally feel is very, very disturbing if it happened anything like that..

Sure, Tim (as owner of the Wings & Wheels website) can do what he wants. But he should, at the same time, make what he is doing (his terms and conditions and business policy) clear to all of his customers by publishing his T&C on his website. He should not make his policy up out of the blue as I feel he likely did with this customer. I have certainly never heard of this policy before.

This kind of thing (the incedent described by an upset customer who has no reason to make it up) does bother people (even though Tim's friends are defending him vigorously). The policy (if its real) itself will bother many on its own. And his continued silence on the issue is very peculiar. Frankly, his silence and refusal to publish his terms (if they exist) creates a certain amount of doubt regarding his business ethics.

Tim, please state your complete wings and wheels want ads terms and conditions openly, publicly and proudly for all of us so we know exactly where you stand. You should not be fearful of stating your business policies here or on your website, right? Why do you appear fearful? Why are you letting others speak for you? You should stand behind your policies as your friends say you do (do you?) and be happy to explain them and add them to your website.

It's the right thing to do and until you do we will have doubts. Thats not at all what we want. Please do the right thing so we can move on without unanswered questions about your policy and requirements for placing want ads on your site. What actions, exactly, will you decide to remove them?

Sincerely,,

Sean

Currently stated wings abs wheels conditions. notice the statement about not accepting any for of compensation....

Link: http://www.wingsandwheels.com/wantads1.htm

Text:
Wings & Wheels "Want Ad's"
Your Want Ad listed for FREE!
Please do not send ad's as attachments,
or in WORD or other document formats, just simply email (sorry no ads accepted by mail post) the ad in the email body as plain text in one paragraph without unnecessary capitals, exclamation points, underline or italics and unformatted without indents or separated lines. All Advertisements must include an email address for contact.
Optionally, include one image to be sent only as a JPEG attachment. (ONE IMAGE ONLY), please do not send composite images since images may have to be cut down for display.
All Ads are completely free of charge! Ads run for 90 days or until I receive notice from the seller that the airplane or item has been sold. Ads can be renewed to run additional 90 days if I receive notification prior to ad expiration and removal. There is no limit on the number or times ads can be renewed, again, always free of charge, however, any ad that is cancelled or removed for failure to notify to renew must remain off the Wings & Wheels want-ads for at least 90 days in order to avoid those wanting to re-list in a more favorable position. As always, there is never any charge for the listing and Wings & Wheels does not request nor will accept any commission or compensation for this service.
I only ask that you please send notice when your sailplane, trailer, airplane or part has been sold or your wanted ad is no longer needed.
email your ad to:

These ads are intended for private sellers only, not for other aircraft dealers, Brokers, Resellers or Commercial vendors!

On 6/04/2013 08:57, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy?

https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneForSaleWantAds?ref=hl

This is looking like pure cyberbullying. What's he done to you, Sean?

Oh, that's right - he ignores you.

GC

Wow...quite the thread.

It might also be called "Competition Glider Pilots with a Keyboard"

Tim has been good to me and I appreciate the W&W free ad. It has taken Tim years of computer work to gain such a glider pilot following to his free glider ads. I just got a call on my Carat A from Germany, so maybe it has found a new home.

Bill

For many years I was criticised that the literary devices I employed to make my points (e.g., irony and satire) were too oblique. So true then as now.

To wit: Mr. Andrzej Kobus and I are in accord. My recent, somewhat colourful post (Top Ten Reasons to “Like” Sean F) was, in fact, a personal attack on Mr. Sean Fidler, and a mean-spirited one at that--intentionally so.

In recent days I watched in dismay as the discussion over Mr. Tim Mara in this thread grew increasingly shrill and uncivil. Even certain individuals whom I regard highly for their opinions and style seemed to be pulled inexorably into that wretched fracas.

I had hoped the shock of my low-grade despatch would cause the unruly combatants to take a deep breath and soberly consider the dangerous course upon which they were embarked. Similarly, I had hoped that most would concur that this thread was ALSO a personal attack, one that I fear has already unfairly damaged not only Mr. Mara’s reputation but also his livelihood. If my maths are correct, some 6% of the participants have stated they would likely look elsewhere for spares as a result of the mud being flung about. I should think the actual impact on Mr. Mara’s business might be substantially higher, at least in the short term, as the preponderance of those who would be uneasy are not so inclined to express their views publicly.

This forum has served gliding very well for many years, providing a venue for pilots from around the globe to exchange ideas and opinions helpfully and courteously. Information is now far more widely disseminated and at a much faster rate. And every man (and woman, of course) has a right to speak. But that right is encumbered by responsibility.

I ask a simple question: are there any amongst us who believe they have the right to take money from another's pocket and defame him over the matter first raised in this thread? For that is where we have arrived.

I am aware that Mr. Fidler is a much more pleasant, less belligerent chap in person than he often seems to be on this forum and I offer my apologies for using him as a foil, albeit a highly cooperative and convenient one.

I hope, even now, that he and others who continue to quarrel here over Mr. Mara’s policy and actions may find a way to resolve a disagreement sparked by a silly tiff that never should have risen to this level, to restore Mr.. Mara’s reputation and good standing, to rehabilitate Mr. Fidler’s, and to allow all to forget that this lamentable scuffle ever took place.

SoarPoint