Soaring Community Consumer Warning

Well not entirely folks!

I have no pony in the race. Don't live in the USA, etc. So as an
outsider I have nothing to win or lose either way.

However - I have dealt with a couple of the Gentlemen, (and I do use the
word advisedly) involved in supplying glider equipment in the USA.

When I have supported the USA internet vendors, All have been
knowledgeable, courteous and provided service well beyond what economy
would indicate.

On the subject of the person placing their ad not knowing the
conditions. I respectfully submit that they can reasonably have been
expected to read the first page of Tim's admittedly busy site:
It is all there in bright colours and huge fonts on -

http://www.wingsandwheels.com/wantads1.htm

So - my suggestion is that this lamentable failure of courtesy should stop.
IF you have a personal issue with someone - don't support that person.
If you have been offensive enough to trigger one of them losing interest
in you as a person and customer - I would be too ashamed to trumpet it
publicly. Their reputation is for decades of informed, courteous service
to soaring. Yours is for ?

Tim and others do what they do as a free service to soaring. All of the
sites are some combination of old, ugly, foreign, complex etc.
Conversely, wingsandwheels.com gets around 33600 hits a month so he must
be doing something right...

If you think you can do something better than Tim - well go on and DO
it. Want to make automated advert posting a reality - why not offer to
do it on Wings and Wheels to extend/return the favour on the same terms?

Don't rant and fuss about what you feel is wrong with what he does and
attack his integrity in this forum.
It does nothing for your reputation. - Well OK so far it gives you a
reputation as a cyber bully with an aversion to reading and an inflated
sense of entitlement.
Not something to aspire to I would think.

Keep it constructive everyone?

/homily

Bruce

On 2013/04/07 3:46 PM, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Exactly right.


--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

What a bunch of crap. Some of you should consider playing violin music while writing these posts to amplify to intended emotional effect.

I simply stand (in this situation) with a past customer of Tim's who was apparently mistreated if what he claims is true (I don't even know him). I defend him from the attacks of Tim's friends in this thread. I personally believe there is some truth to his complaint against Tim's business practices.

I have no problem with Tim personally. I am not attacking his personally. I am disagreeing with his policy and with the way he "may" have treated this situation. I have said this repeatedly. I have a problem with how this particular incident has been handled and the continued lack of response to it. I also, if it is indeed the case, have a problem with his continued failure to update the terms conditions on the wings and wheels website which mention NOTHING ABOUT ANY EXCLUSIVITY REQUIREMENT IN ANY WAY AT ALL. Anyone who tries to imply that Tims site does state this requirement is either dishonest or simply dumb.

Some of you assume far too much about the situation as it stands today. We actually know very, very few facts at all. The only fact is that no such exclusivity condition exists on Wings and Wheels today.

We need to hear Tim's side of the story here. I think his past "customer" (who seems to have been removed from wings and wheels) deserves a public response to his complaint and/or apology.

All the debate and continuation of the thread is because so much doubt about the situation remains. That doubt exists becuase of Tim's decision not to address it in any way.

As far as my posts, all I have been doing is defending my points from attacks and making an argument for a response. You can attack me all you want. I find it truly amusing bordering on hilarious at times. It's the same thing about anyone who disagrees with the popular crowd here on RAS on any topic. Right or wrong. It is actually I who am personally attacked for not towing the line and letting this go.

If you want this thead to move on I suggest you stop defending Tim's apparent actions as inconsequential if they happened. This effort sounds to me like an admition (by proxy of course) without the audience having any real knowledge on the facts (and with no apology whatsoever, in fact the opposite of an apology). The accusation is serious. Second hand proxies do not count here. Let him make a statement on his W&W exclusivity policy (if it exists). Let him admit (apologize) or deny of the accusation and call the accuser a liar for posting here. Only Tim can defend himself from his accuser or chose to apologize. Only he can tell us if this policy exists now and if he plans to continue expecting those using W&W to not post their ad anywhere else but W&W. The only fact we have is that NOTHING ABOUT EXLUSIVITY POLICY EXISTS ON WINGS AND WHEELS WANT ADS.

Everything else is pure HEARSAY.

Taking the fifth is always a poor ongoing strategy IMO.

Still nothing in the W&W conditions about exclusivity as of this morning. Although I have been recieving a number of emails and a few phone calls from some fairly notable soaring pilots about this exact thing happening to them in the past. I am shocked at some of those exchanges.

Tim? Why do you not publish this exclusivity policy on W&W's if you have been threatening to kick people off of wings and wheels want ads for such a long period? Wouldn't putting that condition on the website make it easier for you and for your customers? Why would you not include that very important condition (to you apparently) with the other clearly stated conditions and instruction which you do have listed there? It makes no sense.

It's silly really. Get-r-done, ok?

The terms and conditions on wings and wheels remain unchanged as of this evening at 7:50 pm. Numerous calls for clarification on this rumored exclusivity policy have gone entirely unanswered.

It appears safe to conclude that no such restriction or exclusivity requirement exists on wings and wheels want ads. I would encourage anyone currently utilizing wings and wheels to have no worries or concerns about posting your glider or equipment ads elsewhere in order to maximize the chance of selling your glider.

I am certain that if W&W had such a policy that it would be prominently displayed on the website with the other instructions and requests..

Perhaps i am mistaken ans W&W's is communicating this policy when repling to an ad submission email? If so, would anyone care to share this communication with us here?

Thanks in advance if you have recieved such an email but it is more likely that this "rumored" policy no longer exists even if it did in the past..

Happy selling!

The almost overwhelming temptation is to respond again but this is going nowhere. Worse, I agree we’re communicating the wrong message.

So I just deleted a point-by-point response. Instead, as my parting message (I promise), I want to say that Tim Mara always treated me right and I never heard a bad word about him. If I got a little carried away, it was because I thought he was being treated badly here. My opinion.

I also said that Bob, the original poster (100+ messages ago!) was out of line but that's also opinion. Only he and Tim really know what happened. Probably only one of them knows why.

I don't think Tim owes anyone an apology or explanation. According to Bob, Tim gave him a choice when he (Tim) saw Bob's ad appear on another site and they parted company. The ad was obviously up elsewhere so there was no gap in exposure. And Bob's had ample opportunity to get it back up on W&W if he wanted. No harm, again in my opinion.

I also can't criticize Tim for having a somewhat unclear exclusivity policy.. Just speculation, but maybe he allows clubs and frequent customers a little more latitude. And what's a competing ad, anyway: an index card and photo on a club room wall? How about a one line listing elsewhere with a link to Wing & Wheels? Nearly everything on the Web is evolving rapidly; no reason to think Tim and Wings & Wheels, though they had an early online presence, aren't also evolving as we speak. Maybe Tim hasn't decided what his policy should be now that there's been so much noise.

So I don't blame him for remaining silent. I think it's safe to say that no matter what he said, he would have been criticized, accused, and abused.

But to try to cut this off, I'll agree that it would be nice (NOT necessary, not required, but nice) if Tim eventually--and NOT in response to being baited or harassed--stated this part of his policy. I'm OK with an exclusive and apparently nearly everyone on W&W now is, too. But it might help avoid another frustrating exchange.

BUT...all of that is IF and ONLY if Sean backs off on questioning Tim's ethics (yeah, he did do that) AND promises not to attack him all over again for what's really a business decision between Tim and his advertisers. If a seller doesn't like it, there are other ways to post ads.

In the meantime, let it go.

FWIW, Wings & Wheels had 61 gliders for sale at last count compared with 6 on GliderSource and 26 on SoaringCafe. Sean's Facebook page hasn't been around very long so it's not fair to include it but it has 2.

One of those ads is Bob's sailplane, which seems to be listed everywhere on the planet EXCEPT on W&W.

So allowing for a few duplicates, Tim's share of sailplane want ads is somewhere north of 65%.

That works for me. Sellers seem OK. And buyers do, too. Of course, if they want to see everything, they also have to check at least one of the other sites but they can see most of what's for sale on W&W.

It also suggests that current sailplane sellers prefer simple (W&W). I suspect that will change, especially as buyers demand more sophisticated online capability themselves. Tim and Bill, maybe you two SHOULD work together. The combination of Tim's market share and Bill's technology creds (which he's already offered) would be a great combination. Expect action from the Federal Trade Commission, however.

OK, I'm done. This is now the third, close to the second most viewed posting in the past YEAR. Depressingly unbelievable.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

If someone decides they want to sell something they probably want to sell
quickly for whatever reason. I recently wanted to sell my wifes car, I put
it on 3 different sites and it went within an hour of the advert appearing,
Gliders are not cars but the same principle applies, the greater the
exposure the greater the chance of selling. There are several free ad sites
in europe including www.gliderpilot.net in the UK. None of them require an
exclusive ad so not problem. If they did I would have to decide if I wanted
to restrict my advert to one site or have the ad on many sites excluding
one. That is a complete no brainer.
I suppose it could be said that there was only one site in the USA and no
prospect of any others but I suspect the ship has already sailed on that
assumption.
What I have taken from this thread is that there are several loyal
customers who will support W&W even if they are wrong and their loyalty
will not be shaken. I have to question if they are really actting in the
best interests of W&W or the soaring community in general. I would have
thought an early resolution to this thread was in everyones interest.
The past is done and cannot be undone but the future can be changed.
Clarity harms no-one.
Only W&W can put a stop to the speculation and it is difficult to
understand why that has not been done especially as the reputation of the
business has been damaged, with at least one potential customer, despite
the support given. Whatever the reasons for the silence it has to be said
that there is something very strange about the W&W business model if it
does not care what uncommitted and potential future customers might think.

On Tuesday, April 9, 2013 8:18:01 AM UTC-5, Don Johnstone wrote:
If someone decides they want to sell something they probably want to sell

quickly for whatever reason. I recently wanted to sell my wifes car, I put

it on 3 different sites and it went within an hour of the advert appearing,

Gliders are not cars but the same principle applies, the greater the

exposure the greater the chance of selling. There are several free ad sites

in europe including www.gliderpilot.net in the UK. None of them require an

exclusive ad so not problem. If they did I would have to decide if I wanted

to restrict my advert to one site or have the ad on many sites excluding

one. That is a complete no brainer.

I suppose it could be said that there was only one site in the USA and no

prospect of any others but I suspect the ship has already sailed on that

assumption.

What I have taken from this thread is that there are several loyal

customers who will support W&W even if they are wrong and their loyalty

will not be shaken. I have to question if they are really actting in the

best interests of W&W or the soaring community in general. I would have

thought an early resolution to this thread was in everyones interest.

The past is done and cannot be undone but the future can be changed.

Clarity harms no-one.

Only W&W can put a stop to the speculation and it is difficult to

understand why that has not been done especially as the reputation of the

business has been damaged, with at least one potential customer, despite

the support given. Whatever the reasons for the silence it has to be said

that there is something very strange about the W&W business model if it

does not care what uncommitted and potential future customers might think..

Don,

As an immigrant to the US, let me try and give you some insights into the American psyche that I have gathered over the last 26 years. We value our individual rights immensely, you just don't tell us what to do. The following is pure speculation but here it goes:
I suspect that Tim really doesn't care if you think he has a strange business model or that his model is causing harm to him being more successful. He probably says with Rhett Butler: frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. He does what he does BECAUSE HE CAN. Heck, for all I know, he might be independently wealthy and not really need to do business or speak on the phone with people that annoy him. I say good on him, he has every right and the freedom to do as he pleases. Sean's and your repeated postings stating the same arguments over and over are likely of no consequence to him. Btw, we have a first amendment to our constitution that allows you to slander and insult anyone as you like, try that in the UK! You're welcome.

On 9/04/2013 23:18, Don Johnstone wrote:
....snippage...
What I have taken from this thread is that there are several loyal
customers who will support W&W even if they are wrong and their loyalty
will not be shaken. I have to question if they are really actting in the
best interests of W&W or the soaring community in general.

Actually Don, in supporting Tim, I didn't give a damn about the soaring
community in general and I haven't any view whatever about his policy on
sales ads because I don't have a glider to sell. I simply saw a bully -
Sean - attacking somebody for no reason and I didn't like it. I have
had dealings with Tim and I'm not going to see him viciously and
unjustifiedly abused without coming to his defence.

Sean continues to do it. Most of his garbage is properly called abuse
or taunting. He is about the nastiest piece of work I've read on ras.

...I would have
thought an early resolution to this thread was in everyones interest.

All that's needed to 'resolve'; it is for Sean to stop his unprompted
attacks. His attacks appear several times a day whether anybody else
has written or not. They are entirely unprovoked. Tim Mara has no
relationship with Sean yet is continually attacked. For example, this
was the entire content of a post from Sean on April 6:

"Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy?"

Nobody can have a reasonable discussion with somebody who writes that
sort of elementary school taunting.

The past is done and cannot be undone but the future can be changed.
Clarity harms no-one.
Only W&W can put a stop to the speculation

No, Don. Nobody can stop Sean. He is quite obsessive in his behaviour.
His postings on this topic are obsessive: 5 on April 1st, 5 on 2nd, 9
on April 3rd, 3 on 5th, 4 on 6th, 7th and 9th and 3 on 8th April. He
began a glider sales page on Facebook simply to spite Tim Mara who he's
never even met. Any response from Tim will simply make it all begin
again. This is simply bullying and abuse from a mentally unbalanced
person and a response from Tim would just produce further attacks.

Look at the same obsessive and irrational behaviour with his endless
postings about attitude information being available during competitions.
He showed the same lack of a sense of proportion and lack of
self-control with his vast number of postings on that topic. Many of
them were only semi-coherent and a sentence or two of logical argument
was rapidly followed by large slabs of personal abuse of posters who he
decided were his 'enemy'. Even when nobody else responded, he continued
to gnaw at that issue like a dog returning to its vomit. On four
occasions he posted that he'd stop pursuing the issue but started it
again a few days later. He twice apologised for his over-the-top
language but each time he could not let it go and came back within a
week. The issue itself was quite trivial but Sean elevated it to World
War 3.

No, Don. Nobody can hold a reasonable conversation with Sean.

GC