Soaring Community Consumer Warning

On 9/04/2013 23:18, Don Johnstone wrote:
....snippage...
What I have taken from this thread is that there are several loyal
customers who will support W&W even if they are wrong and their loyalty
will not be shaken. I have to question if they are really actting in the
best interests of W&W or the soaring community in general.

Actually Don, in supporting Tim, I didn't give a damn about the soaring
community in general and I haven't any view whatever about his policy on
sales ads because I don't have a glider to sell. I simply saw a bully -
Sean - attacking somebody for no reason and I didn't like it. I have
had dealings with Tim and I'm not going to see him viciously and
unjustifiedly abused without coming to his defence.

Sean continues to do it. Most of his garbage is properly called abuse
or taunting. He is about the nastiest piece of work I've read on ras.

...I would have
thought an early resolution to this thread was in everyones interest.

All that's needed to 'resolve'; it is for Sean to stop his unprompted
attacks. His attacks appear several times a day whether anybody else
has written or not. They are entirely unprovoked. Tim Mara has no
relationship with Sean yet is continually attacked. For example, this
was the entire content of a post from Sean on April 6:

"Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy?"

Nobody can have a reasonable discussion with somebody who writes that
sort of elementary school taunting.

The past is done and cannot be undone but the future can be changed.
Clarity harms no-one.
Only W&W can put a stop to the speculation

No, Don. Nobody can stop Sean. He is quite obsessive in his behaviour.
His postings on this topic are obsessive: 5 on April 1st, 5 on 2nd, 9
on April 3rd, 3 on 5th, 4 on 6th, 7th and 9th and 3 on 8th April. He
began a glider sales page on Facebook simply to spite Tim Mara who he's
never even met. Any response from Tim will simply make it all begin
again. This is simply bullying and abuse from a mentally unbalanced
person and a response from Tim would just produce further attacks.

Look at the same obsessive and irrational behaviour with his endless
postings about attitude information being available during competitions.
He showed the same lack of a sense of proportion and lack of
self-control with his vast number of postings on that topic. Many of
them were only semi-coherent and a sentence or two of logical argument
was rapidly followed by large slabs of personal abuse of posters who he
decided were his 'enemy'. Even when nobody else responded, he continued
to gnaw at that issue like a dog returning to its vomit. On four
occasions he posted that he'd stop pursuing the issue but started it
again a few days later. He twice apologised for his over-the-top
language but each time he could not let it go and came back within a
week. The issue itself was quite trivial but Sean elevated it to World
War 3.

No, Don. Nobody can hold a reasonable conversation with Sean.

GC

On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:27:25 AM UTC-5, GC wrote:
On 9/04/2013 23:18, Don Johnstone wrote:

...snippage...

What I have taken from this thread is that there are several loyal

customers who will support W&W even if they are wrong and their loyalty

will not be shaken. I have to question if they are really actting in the

best interests of W&W or the soaring community in general.



Actually Don, in supporting Tim, I didn't give a damn about the soaring

community in general and I haven't any view whatever about his policy on

sales ads because I don't have a glider to sell. I simply saw a bully -

Sean - attacking somebody for no reason and I didn't like it. I have

had dealings with Tim and I'm not going to see him viciously and

unjustifiedly abused without coming to his defence.



Sean continues to do it. Most of his garbage is properly called abuse

or taunting. He is about the nastiest piece of work I've read on ras.



...I would have

thought an early resolution to this thread was in everyones interest.



All that's needed to 'resolve'; it is for Sean to stop his unprompted

attacks. His attacks appear several times a day whether anybody else

has written or not. They are entirely unprovoked. Tim Mara has no

relationship with Sean yet is continually attacked. For example, this

was the entire content of a post from Sean on April 6:



"Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your policy?"



Nobody can have a reasonable discussion with somebody who writes that

sort of elementary school taunting.



The past is done and cannot be undone but the future can be changed.

Clarity harms no-one.

Only W&W can put a stop to the speculation



No, Don. Nobody can stop Sean. He is quite obsessive in his behaviour.

His postings on this topic are obsessive: 5 on April 1st, 5 on 2nd, 9

on April 3rd, 3 on 5th, 4 on 6th, 7th and 9th and 3 on 8th April. He

began a glider sales page on Facebook simply to spite Tim Mara who he's

never even met. Any response from Tim will simply make it all begin

again. This is simply bullying and abuse from a mentally unbalanced

person and a response from Tim would just produce further attacks.



Look at the same obsessive and irrational behaviour with his endless

postings about attitude information being available during competitions.

He showed the same lack of a sense of proportion and lack of

self-control with his vast number of postings on that topic. Many of

them were only semi-coherent and a sentence or two of logical argument

was rapidly followed by large slabs of personal abuse of posters who he

decided were his 'enemy'. Even when nobody else responded, he continued

to gnaw at that issue like a dog returning to its vomit. On four

occasions he posted that he'd stop pursuing the issue but started it

again a few days later. He twice apologised for his over-the-top

language but each time he could not let it go and came back within a

week. The issue itself was quite trivial but Sean elevated it to World

War 3.



No, Don. Nobody can hold a reasonable conversation with Sean.



GC

Excellent analysis, GC, thanks. It becomes painful to read Sean's repeated outpourings that don't seem to have passed the natural filter most of us possess to limit personal attacks. Makes me yearn for Lennie the Lurker and his musings, Lennie was at least funny!

At 13:27 10 April 2013, GC wrote:
On 9/04/2013 23:18, Don Johnstone wrote:
....snippage...
What I have taken from this thread is that there are several loyal
customers who will support W&W even if they are wrong and their loyalty
will not be shaken. I have to question if they are really actting in
the
best interests of W&W or the soaring community in general.

Actually Don, in supporting Tim, I didn't give a damn about the soaring
community in general and I haven't any view whatever about his policy on
sales ads because I don't have a glider to sell. I simply saw a bully -
Sean - attacking somebody for no reason and I didn't like it. I have
had dealings with Tim and I'm not going to see him viciously and
unjustifiedly abused without coming to his defence.

Sean continues to do it. Most of his garbage is properly called abuse
or taunting. He is about the nastiest piece of work I've read on ras.

...I would have
thought an early resolution to this thread was in everyones interest.

All that's needed to 'resolve'; it is for Sean to stop his unprompted
attacks. His attacks appear several times a day whether anybody else
has written or not. They are entirely unprovoked. Tim Mara has no
relationship with Sean yet is continually attacked. For example, this
was the entire content of a post from Sean on April 6:

"Tim, oh Tim? Where are you? Still under your desk? What's your
policy?"

Nobody can have a reasonable discussion with somebody who writes that
sort of elementary school taunting.

The past is done and cannot be undone but the future can be changed.
Clarity harms no-one.
Only W&W can put a stop to the speculation

No, Don. Nobody can stop Sean. He is quite obsessive in his behaviour.
His postings on this topic are obsessive: 5 on April 1st, 5 on 2nd, 9
on April 3rd, 3 on 5th, 4 on 6th, 7th and 9th and 3 on 8th April. He
began a glider sales page on Facebook simply to spite Tim Mara who he's
never even met. Any response from Tim will simply make it all begin
again. This is simply bullying and abuse from a mentally unbalanced
person and a response from Tim would just produce further attacks.

Look at the same obsessive and irrational behaviour with his endless
postings about attitude information being available during competitions.
He showed the same lack of a sense of proportion and lack of
self-control with his vast number of postings on that topic. Many of
them were only semi-coherent and a sentence or two of logical argument
was rapidly followed by large slabs of personal abuse of posters who he
decided were his 'enemy'. Even when nobody else responded, he continued
to gnaw at that issue like a dog returning to its vomit. On four
occasions he posted that he'd stop pursuing the issue but started it
again a few days later. He twice apologised for his over-the-top
language but each time he could not let it go and came back within a
week. The issue itself was quite trivial but Sean elevated it to World
War 3.

No, Don. Nobody can hold a reasonable conversation with Sean.

GC

So let me see if I have this right, if you like someone they are
automatically right and if you dislike someone they are automatically
wrong?
Sometimes the best way of serving a friend is to advise them when they are
making a mistake.
If W&W were to state their policy re exclusive adverts publicly and Sean
continue with his attack I would support your view of his actions, until
then I have to concede he has a point, even if I agree with you that his
manner of making his point is somewhat less than polite.

An example of the many emails (and phone calls) I have been receiving from ex customers of wings and wheels. Some pretty well known pilots on this list...

-----------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Just so you know - it is all true

Date: April 7, 2013, 8:15 PM

When I was selling my glider last year, I got the same bull**** from Tim. Below is the email I received and my reply.

His final reply - "you haven't bought anything from me since 2004" My response - silence and I let my feet do the talking, I'll never deal with him again.

I need to keep quiet on this topic for now but I am getting closer and closer to chiming in as the attacks you have been receiving continue. So now you know this is not an isolated case of one guy with sour grapes who started the thread in the first place. He's been doing this for over a year!

--------------------------------------------------------------
Tim,

I have removed my ad from the Glider Source.com website, as I feel your want ads provide more exposure and you have left me with little choice.

HOWEVER, I think it is petty of you to take this position and it has taken me completely by surprise. Tim, you are a salesman and as such need to maintain good relations with your customers and this is going to alienate you from some of your loyal customers.

I have been a customer of yours for several years and will continue to do business with you when the need arises.

undisclosed

From: Tim Mara
To: ############################
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 5:45:05 PM
Subject: want ads

your ad is still listed on both sites so it will be removed from the W&W want-ads on 9-20-11 as I noted earlier
should you later decide you want to list on W&W want-ads please note you must wait at least 90 days once removed from the W&W site
regards
Tim Mara

undisclosed

I do not dislike Tim at all. I have purchased stuff from Tim. I have never listed anything for sale on W&W and would not if told I must not post elsewhere. I dislike his policy and the attacks on the thread originator. That bugged me. I don't mind the attacks, threats, nastiness against me at all. Those folks are all already ****ed about my arguments for FAI, club class, artificial horizons, etc. For me there is nothing to lose ;-). I have plenty of friends. If someone wants to hold a grudge for whatever reason, it's there problem.

Tim is fine personally. I have no issue and am sure that he is friendly when things are going his way. He should, however, man up on this policy by clearly stating it on his website for all considering submission of an ad to see (or end the policy and consider apologizing wherever necessary).

I think it's clear that his policy (behind close doors and privately with his customers) is actually "exclusivity or hit the road pal." I don't think that is debatable other than the complete lack of any information about it at all EVEN AFTER NUMEROUS PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CONTACTED BY TIM REQUESTING THAT THEY REMOVE ALL ADS FROM OTHER SOARING WEB SITES OR BE REMOVED FROM WINGS AND WHEELS IMMEDIATELY.

And I think it is safe to assume that many existing sailplane owners would NOT appreciate being expected to only place their ad exclusively on wings and wheels (or else). Tim's inner circle of close friends will defend him with threats and name calling. Tim is 100% innocent and anyone saying otherwise is an a--hole, etc, etc, etc, etc. I fully understand their panic. Again, I am pretty happy with my position that the original poster of this thread was telling the absolute truth about his experience with Wings and Wheels. And that the attacks he endured by Tim's proxy were blind, uninformed and plain wrong.

I will continue making these points, defending Bob and have zero regrets for doing so. Informing those in the marketplace of the W&W policies. To me it's just a simple, docile discussion about a business policy and how (and why) it is communicated in the way that it is now (hidden, secretive).

It's the other side of the discussion that is getting increasingly nasty and frustrated with the consistency of my argument.

Sean
F2

Yeah, I know I said I was done. I changed my mind. That's the least of many offenses committed in this thread.

I don't blindly defend anyone. Nor do I base my assessment of what's right on whether I like someone. I examine what's being said and by whom, compare that to my own experience and research, and then offer a defense when it seems warranted. In this case, at all times I've said that neither I nor anyone else really knows what happened between Bob DeLeon and Tim Mara except them.

We do know what's happened since then, however, and I don't need anything except my own moral compass to know something's gone very, very wrong. Several posters have made comments about the way we do things here in America (not always very diplomatically). Well, like it or not, in this country you're innocent until proven guilty. I object to the way a few have chosen to indict and convict Tim on the basis of another guy's accusations and Tim's refusal to get involved publicly. From Sean's most recent post (well, it was the most recent 10 minutes ago but I haven't checked since):

"Again, I am pretty happy with my position that the original poster of this thread was telling the absolute truth about his experience with Wings and Wheels."

Sean, it must be wonderful to always know who's telling the truth. I don't know why Tim hasn't spoken up. I do know, based on communicating with him directly, that there's another side to the original Bob DeLeon story. I promised not to disclose this version--and it would be hearsay anyway--but I can say that after comparing the two accounts and the points on which the two guys agree (one being that Tim did, indeed, hang up on Bob, and the other being that Bob did, indeed, insist somewhat forcefully and repeatedly that he be allowed to keep his sailplane listed on another site), I'm much happier supporting Tim right now than I would be supporting Bob. Am I absolutely certain, as Sean claims to be? Of course not.

As to W&W's exclusivity policy, I don't know how long it's been in effect or how it's been communicated in every case. Is it “secretive”? I agree it's not disclosed on the site. Several references now have mentioned that it's been communicated via email, at least sometimes. Horrors!! When's the last time you clicked on "free offer" on a Web site and only then learned you had to register and provide personal information to get it? Annoying? Maybe, depending on how much you really wanted that free offer (nothing is free, guys). But deceptive or unethical? Some obviously think so; others disagree.

Whatever your opinion about whether this make sense for W&W or how sellers react to it, I can't see how anyone is harmed. Two thirds of sailplane ads are still on W&W so I guess those sellers have decided it's worth it even if some don't like it.

If your free ad is already on W&W and you don't use another site, there's no problem. If you don't like the policy, you can start off on another free-ad site and switch to W&W later, like Bill Elliott did. Or vice versa. You're going steady, not getting married. If, like Bob, you try to put your ad on W&W and another site and you're told you can't, your free ad stays visible someplace no matter what. And you can always change your mind.

I think Bob put his finger on the real "harm" here in the closing lines of his original message:

"Beware soaring community of those who make it tough on you…like hanging up on you and not listening. Instead, patronize those who go the extra mile and work with you."

Hanging up and not listening. Seems to me that this was, and still is, all about a bruised ego.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

At 22:24 10 April 2013, wrote:

As to W&W's exclusivity policy, I don't know how long it's been in effect
o=
r how it's been communicated in every case. Is it =93secretive=94? I
agree
=
it's not disclosed on the site. Several references now have mentioned
that
=
it's been communicated via email, at least sometimes. Horrors!! When's
the
=
last time you clicked on "free offer" on a Web site and only then learned
y=
ou had to register and provide personal information to get it? Annoying?
Ma=
ybe, depending on how much you really wanted that free offer (nothing is
fr=
ee, guys). But deceptive or unethical? Some obviously think so; others
disa=
gree.=20

Whatever your opinion about whether this make sense for W&W or how
sellers
=
react to it, I can't see how anyone is harmed.

I have been waiting for sometime for someone else to deduce why an
exclusive policy is not only bad but can never ever work on the internet.
Let us assume that there is some rsole who decides that he wants a real pop
at a site that has an exclusive policy.
He sets up a new "free ad" site. He then cuts and pastes all the ads from
the exclusive site onto his own site, which being in Cuba is not accessible
to US Law. The ads are now posted on two sites. The eclusive site contacts
the owners of the ads instructing them to remove the ad from the other
site, which of course they cannot do as they do not control the site. All
the ads are removed from the exclusive site which now has no ads. Any new
ad is cut and pasted and gets removed.
A site with free ads is not going to get many visitors if it has no ads.
QED you have to think these things through.

On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:25:18 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:

I have been waiting for sometime for someone else to deduce why an
exclusive policy is not only bad but can never ever work on the internet.
Let us assume that there is some rsole who decides that he wants a real pop
at a site that has an exclusive policy.
He sets up a new "free ad" site. He then cuts and pastes all the ads from
the exclusive site onto his own site, which being in Cuba is not accessible
to US Law. The ads are now posted on two sites. The eclusive site contacts
the owners of the ads instructing them to remove the ad from the other
site, which of course they cannot do as they do not control the site. All
the ads are removed from the exclusive site which now has no ads. Any new
ad is cut and pasted and gets removed.
A site with free ads is not going to get many visitors if it has no ads.

QED you have to think these things through.


Actually, Don, we no longer have to *assume* there are people such as you describe.

In any case, when your hypothetical Sailplanes of Cuba (SCUBA) launches, it’s Tim's problem. He doesn't need experts on RAS telling him how to run his business and trying to protect him from himself because his business model "can never ever work on the Internet". [You don’t work for the government, by any chance? ]

And the scenario you describe where Tim blindly cancels every ad that pops up on SCUBA until he has none left ignores behavioral response to change. It's why politicians are surprised when they boost tax rates dramatically and tax revenues don't go up proportionately. People or companies move out of the state or country, they shift income to other sources, or they take advantage of tax loopholes. [Same question about your line of work. ]

But let's say Tim behaves as you predict and blindly deletes all his ads because they're also displayed on SCUBA. That site is going to have a problem once those first sailplanes are sold. Where to get new ads? Oh, and that assumes SCUBA knows when to take down an ad when the sailplane is sold.

OK, presumably sellers have shifted to the other free ad sites. SCUBA can scrape those sites, too. Only now, unlike on Wings & Wheels, there's not just one ad. Many sellers have listed on several sites. And the listings aren't always identical. Sellers can (and will) update the price or the details or text anytime they want trying to appeal. So pretty soon SCUBA has 2 or 3 or 10 times as many ads as there are actual sailplanes for sale.

For that matter, Tim doesn't have to behave as predicted and cancel out all his sellers. He could keep his current ads and simply edit them every few weeks (or days) to change the price by $5 or the description (ASW-24 to ASW 24 or SGS 2-33 to Schweizer 2-33) or reformat/rearrange/add/delete words in the text or put some of the headers in images rather than text, or any of the things that are done in the real world to discourage screen scraping.

Same result: SCUBA would soon be a mess of duplicate and obsolete listings. Sure, you could configure a rules engine to analyze the ads to determine which ones are (probably) dupes. Or just pick up the most current ones from Tim’s site and delete the ones that don’t exist anywhere. But how much time is this hypothetical person willing to devote to destroying Tim’s free service? Will he keep going day after day, doing and saying the same things trying to slam Tim? That’s hard to believe.

As you said, Don, you have to think these things through!

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

On 11/04/2013 05:43, Don Johnstone wrote:

So let me see if I have this right, if you like someone they are
automatically right and if you dislike someone they are automatically
wrong?
Sometimes the best way of serving a friend is to advise them when they are
making a mistake.
If W&W were to state their policy re exclusive adverts publicly and Sean
continue with his attack I would support your view of his actions, until
then I have to concede he has a point, even if I agree with you that his
manner of making his point is somewhat less than polite.


No, Don. You don't have it right and you're distorting what I said. I
don't like bullying behaviour and that's the main reason I defended Tim.
I was able to defend Tim because I have had dealings with him which I
felt showed his 'business model', as you grandiosely call it, was not as
you describe.

Besides, this is not Walmart or Tesco we're talking about here. This is
a corner store in glidingland and it's run on a very personal basis.
Tim makes decisions as he goes along as to who he deals with and on what
basis - just like any corner store owner. To call it a 'policy' is too
grand by a country mile.

By now, all of us, including Sean are very well aware of how Tim runs
his business. I intend to continue to deal with him as it seems clear
most others on this forum will do. Sean's continuation with taunting ,
deriding and harassing Tim is simple bullying at this point.

I also think you're plain wrong. At this point, Tim's business is more
helped by Sean's incessant *******ry towards him than harmed by my mild
support.

GC

The scraping of W&W ads by Soaring Cafe was news to me and was quite bold of them to do. I just learned about it today from someone (and from Bill's post in another thread). I can understand W&W being upset with Soaring Cafe. But why include GliderSource then? Why include all other sites? Why not just the irritant, Soaring Cafe? Why risk (well, actually) irritating customers over nothing? Why not ask them to do this out of a gentleman's request vs. DEMANDING they do it (and right quick)? There is a big difference between a customer choosing to post their ads elsewhere and another website scraping them from you.

It frustrates me that W&W's uses a "silent agreement(?)" policy rather than simply publishing this requirement to the site. If W&W's is going to continue the exclusivity policy even though the irritant which caused the creation of the policy (assuming that is the case) has both personally and publicly stated they will "never do that again", why keep (often destructively) enforcing the policy?

If W&W was, for whatever new reason, going to keep the policy in place, why not be straight forward with everyone who views W&W's so there are no surprises for W&W's or their valued customers after the ad is posted?

I can see it as reasonable to offer "Free Ad's ;-)" (well, not really "free" because...) but only if you, Mr. Customer, agree to list your ad exclusively on the W&W's. Failure to comply may result in immediate deletion of said ad along with a 90 day sentence in the W&W dunce corner (not re-submission of your ad) ;-).

That would be fair and reasonable if W&W yields the highest traffic and sales results for sellers. Customers would have the choice to use W&W's under those terms or go with the other choices. Again, this policy is only fair IF the policy is clearly posted on page 1 of the Want Ads with the other policies and instructions and the customer agree's to it from the time of ad submission.

If W&W's continue's to move forward without publishing those terms on their site (or explaining it very clearly to customers and getting their agreement before publishing their ads on the site) there are going to be some more bumps on this path.

The practice of contacting customers (after finding an ad somewhere else policing the want ads universe) and demanding (your own customers) they remove the other ads or you're pulling them off W&W today... that's understandably upsetting. I'm just not sure how that experience could be considered just a bruised ego or "sour grapes." It's slightly rude at minimum, IMO. Especially if they were not made fully aware of the policy when submitting their ad.

Again, W&W can do what they want. They are the most popular site. Tim is not a bad person in any way, its simply a bad policy because it not on the up and up. I am arguing against this policy. All else is great. W&W offer's value, why not state any and all requirements for accessing that value openly. Why hide it? Why risk that leadership position over this long since past episode with Soaring Cafe?



On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:26:46 PM UTC-4, GC wrote:
On 11/04/2013 05:43, Don Johnstone wrote:



So let me see if I have this right, if you like someone they are

automatically right and if you dislike someone they are automatically

wrong?

Sometimes the best way of serving a friend is to advise them when they are

making a mistake.

If W&W were to state their policy re exclusive adverts publicly and Sean

continue with his attack I would support your view of his actions, until

then I have to concede he has a point, even if I agree with you that his

manner of making his point is somewhat less than polite.





No, Don. You don't have it right and you're distorting what I said. I

don't like bullying behaviour and that's the main reason I defended Tim.

I was able to defend Tim because I have had dealings with him which I

felt showed his 'business model', as you grandiosely call it, was not as

you describe.



Besides, this is not Walmart or Tesco we're talking about here. This is

a corner store in glidingland and it's run on a very personal basis.

Tim makes decisions as he goes along as to who he deals with and on what

basis - just like any corner store owner. To call it a 'policy' is too

grand by a country mile.



By now, all of us, including Sean are very well aware of how Tim runs

his business. I intend to continue to deal with him as it seems clear

most others on this forum will do. Sean's continuation with taunting ,

deriding and harassing Tim is simple bullying at this point.



I also think you're plain wrong. At this point, Tim's business is more

helped by Sean's incessant *******ry towards him than harmed by my mild

support.



GC