Soaring Community Consumer Warning

I do not dislike Tim at all. I have purchased stuff from Tim. I have never listed anything for sale on W&W and would not if told I must not post elsewhere. I dislike his policy and the attacks on the thread originator. That bugged me. I don't mind the attacks, threats, nastiness against me at all. Those folks are all already ****ed about my arguments for FAI, club class, artificial horizons, etc. For me there is nothing to lose ;-). I have plenty of friends. If someone wants to hold a grudge for whatever reason, it's there problem.

Tim is fine personally. I have no issue and am sure that he is friendly when things are going his way. He should, however, man up on this policy by clearly stating it on his website for all considering submission of an ad to see (or end the policy and consider apologizing wherever necessary).

I think it's clear that his policy (behind close doors and privately with his customers) is actually "exclusivity or hit the road pal." I don't think that is debatable other than the complete lack of any information about it at all EVEN AFTER NUMEROUS PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CONTACTED BY TIM REQUESTING THAT THEY REMOVE ALL ADS FROM OTHER SOARING WEB SITES OR BE REMOVED FROM WINGS AND WHEELS IMMEDIATELY.

And I think it is safe to assume that many existing sailplane owners would NOT appreciate being expected to only place their ad exclusively on wings and wheels (or else). Tim's inner circle of close friends will defend him with threats and name calling. Tim is 100% innocent and anyone saying otherwise is an a--hole, etc, etc, etc, etc. I fully understand their panic. Again, I am pretty happy with my position that the original poster of this thread was telling the absolute truth about his experience with Wings and Wheels. And that the attacks he endured by Tim's proxy were blind, uninformed and plain wrong.

I will continue making these points, defending Bob and have zero regrets for doing so. Informing those in the marketplace of the W&W policies. To me it's just a simple, docile discussion about a business policy and how (and why) it is communicated in the way that it is now (hidden, secretive).

It's the other side of the discussion that is getting increasingly nasty and frustrated with the consistency of my argument.

Sean
F2

Yeah, I know I said I was done. I changed my mind. That's the least of many offenses committed in this thread.

I don't blindly defend anyone. Nor do I base my assessment of what's right on whether I like someone. I examine what's being said and by whom, compare that to my own experience and research, and then offer a defense when it seems warranted. In this case, at all times I've said that neither I nor anyone else really knows what happened between Bob DeLeon and Tim Mara except them.

We do know what's happened since then, however, and I don't need anything except my own moral compass to know something's gone very, very wrong. Several posters have made comments about the way we do things here in America (not always very diplomatically). Well, like it or not, in this country you're innocent until proven guilty. I object to the way a few have chosen to indict and convict Tim on the basis of another guy's accusations and Tim's refusal to get involved publicly. From Sean's most recent post (well, it was the most recent 10 minutes ago but I haven't checked since):

"Again, I am pretty happy with my position that the original poster of this thread was telling the absolute truth about his experience with Wings and Wheels."

Sean, it must be wonderful to always know who's telling the truth. I don't know why Tim hasn't spoken up. I do know, based on communicating with him directly, that there's another side to the original Bob DeLeon story. I promised not to disclose this version--and it would be hearsay anyway--but I can say that after comparing the two accounts and the points on which the two guys agree (one being that Tim did, indeed, hang up on Bob, and the other being that Bob did, indeed, insist somewhat forcefully and repeatedly that he be allowed to keep his sailplane listed on another site), I'm much happier supporting Tim right now than I would be supporting Bob. Am I absolutely certain, as Sean claims to be? Of course not.

As to W&W's exclusivity policy, I don't know how long it's been in effect or how it's been communicated in every case. Is it “secretive”? I agree it's not disclosed on the site. Several references now have mentioned that it's been communicated via email, at least sometimes. Horrors!! When's the last time you clicked on "free offer" on a Web site and only then learned you had to register and provide personal information to get it? Annoying? Maybe, depending on how much you really wanted that free offer (nothing is free, guys). But deceptive or unethical? Some obviously think so; others disagree.

Whatever your opinion about whether this make sense for W&W or how sellers react to it, I can't see how anyone is harmed. Two thirds of sailplane ads are still on W&W so I guess those sellers have decided it's worth it even if some don't like it.

If your free ad is already on W&W and you don't use another site, there's no problem. If you don't like the policy, you can start off on another free-ad site and switch to W&W later, like Bill Elliott did. Or vice versa. You're going steady, not getting married. If, like Bob, you try to put your ad on W&W and another site and you're told you can't, your free ad stays visible someplace no matter what. And you can always change your mind.

I think Bob put his finger on the real "harm" here in the closing lines of his original message:

"Beware soaring community of those who make it tough on you…like hanging up on you and not listening. Instead, patronize those who go the extra mile and work with you."

Hanging up and not listening. Seems to me that this was, and still is, all about a bruised ego.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

At 22:24 10 April 2013, wrote:

As to W&W's exclusivity policy, I don't know how long it's been in effect
o=
r how it's been communicated in every case. Is it =93secretive=94? I
agree
=
it's not disclosed on the site. Several references now have mentioned
that
=
it's been communicated via email, at least sometimes. Horrors!! When's
the
=
last time you clicked on "free offer" on a Web site and only then learned
y=
ou had to register and provide personal information to get it? Annoying?
Ma=
ybe, depending on how much you really wanted that free offer (nothing is
fr=
ee, guys). But deceptive or unethical? Some obviously think so; others
disa=
gree.=20

Whatever your opinion about whether this make sense for W&W or how
sellers
=
react to it, I can't see how anyone is harmed.

I have been waiting for sometime for someone else to deduce why an
exclusive policy is not only bad but can never ever work on the internet.
Let us assume that there is some rsole who decides that he wants a real pop
at a site that has an exclusive policy.
He sets up a new "free ad" site. He then cuts and pastes all the ads from
the exclusive site onto his own site, which being in Cuba is not accessible
to US Law. The ads are now posted on two sites. The eclusive site contacts
the owners of the ads instructing them to remove the ad from the other
site, which of course they cannot do as they do not control the site. All
the ads are removed from the exclusive site which now has no ads. Any new
ad is cut and pasted and gets removed.
A site with free ads is not going to get many visitors if it has no ads.
QED you have to think these things through.

On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:25:18 PM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:

I have been waiting for sometime for someone else to deduce why an
exclusive policy is not only bad but can never ever work on the internet.
Let us assume that there is some rsole who decides that he wants a real pop
at a site that has an exclusive policy.
He sets up a new "free ad" site. He then cuts and pastes all the ads from
the exclusive site onto his own site, which being in Cuba is not accessible
to US Law. The ads are now posted on two sites. The eclusive site contacts
the owners of the ads instructing them to remove the ad from the other
site, which of course they cannot do as they do not control the site. All
the ads are removed from the exclusive site which now has no ads. Any new
ad is cut and pasted and gets removed.
A site with free ads is not going to get many visitors if it has no ads.

QED you have to think these things through.


Actually, Don, we no longer have to *assume* there are people such as you describe.

In any case, when your hypothetical Sailplanes of Cuba (SCUBA) launches, it’s Tim's problem. He doesn't need experts on RAS telling him how to run his business and trying to protect him from himself because his business model "can never ever work on the Internet". [You don’t work for the government, by any chance? ]

And the scenario you describe where Tim blindly cancels every ad that pops up on SCUBA until he has none left ignores behavioral response to change. It's why politicians are surprised when they boost tax rates dramatically and tax revenues don't go up proportionately. People or companies move out of the state or country, they shift income to other sources, or they take advantage of tax loopholes. [Same question about your line of work. ]

But let's say Tim behaves as you predict and blindly deletes all his ads because they're also displayed on SCUBA. That site is going to have a problem once those first sailplanes are sold. Where to get new ads? Oh, and that assumes SCUBA knows when to take down an ad when the sailplane is sold.

OK, presumably sellers have shifted to the other free ad sites. SCUBA can scrape those sites, too. Only now, unlike on Wings & Wheels, there's not just one ad. Many sellers have listed on several sites. And the listings aren't always identical. Sellers can (and will) update the price or the details or text anytime they want trying to appeal. So pretty soon SCUBA has 2 or 3 or 10 times as many ads as there are actual sailplanes for sale.

For that matter, Tim doesn't have to behave as predicted and cancel out all his sellers. He could keep his current ads and simply edit them every few weeks (or days) to change the price by $5 or the description (ASW-24 to ASW 24 or SGS 2-33 to Schweizer 2-33) or reformat/rearrange/add/delete words in the text or put some of the headers in images rather than text, or any of the things that are done in the real world to discourage screen scraping.

Same result: SCUBA would soon be a mess of duplicate and obsolete listings. Sure, you could configure a rules engine to analyze the ads to determine which ones are (probably) dupes. Or just pick up the most current ones from Tim’s site and delete the ones that don’t exist anywhere. But how much time is this hypothetical person willing to devote to destroying Tim’s free service? Will he keep going day after day, doing and saying the same things trying to slam Tim? That’s hard to believe.

As you said, Don, you have to think these things through!

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.