Almost perfect payout winch launch.

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 11:02:14 AM UTC-5, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 14:07 07 May 2013, Bill D wrote: On Monday, May 6, 2013 10:46:40 PM UTC-6, Waveguru wrote: If we had slowed down a little, and tightened up the tension a bit, we could have added a couple hundred more feet? What do you think about the "Payout Winch"? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5WDiHHgua8 Boggs I think if you had a real winch and learned how to use it safely, you'd get a lot higher. I think that is the most complicated and potentially dangerous method of winch launching that I have ever seen. I am completely sold on winching, having made over 10000 launches on many types of winch over the years. I have to say that some of the winches I have used, including a converted Rover car have been less than ideal, and perhaps a little unwise, but this has to be the most foolhardy version I have ever come across. I would be the first to admit that there are several potential hazards in winch launching but a system as complex as that is an accident just waiting to happen. Please stop it guys, get a proper conventional winch if that is the way you want to go, or go to a straight forward auto tow.

i'm interested to hear more about your opinion. Gary's payout winch basically has built in tension control in that if, say, the glider hits a thermal on the climb, instead of the line loading up and breaking, it just lets out more line so you get to use that thermal to climb higher.

hang glider guys use payout winches a lot to launch in the flat lands.

On 5/7/2013 9:23 AM, Tony wrote:
On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 11:02:14 AM UTC-5, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 14:07 07 May 2013, Bill D wrote: On Monday, May 6, 2013 10:46:40 PM UTC-6, Waveguru wrote: If we had slowed down a little, and tightened up the tension a bit, we could have added a couple hundred more feet? What do you think about the "Payout Winch"? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5WDiHHgua8 Boggs I think if you had a real winch and learned how to use it safely, you'd get a lot higher. I think that is the most complicated and potentially dangerous method of winch launching that I have ever seen. I am completely sold on winching, having made over 10000 launches on many types of winch over the years. I have to say that some of the winches I have used, including a converted Rover car have been less than ideal, and perhaps a little unwise, but this has to be the most foolhardy version I have ever come across. I would be the first to admit that there are several potential hazards in winch launching but a system as complex as that is an accident ju
st waiting to happen. Please stop it guys, get a proper conventional winch if that is the way you want to go, or go to a straight forward auto tow.

i'm interested to hear more about your opinion. Gary's payout winch basically has built in tension control in that if, say, the glider hits a thermal on the climb, instead of the line loading up and breaking, it just lets out more line so you get to use that thermal to climb higher.

hang glider guys use payout winches a lot to launch in the flat lands.


Their stall speed is a lot slower. I am not sure that I understand how
you could use a payout winch with a glider unless the truck is driving
at a tremendous speed.

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 10:26:31 AM UTC-6, Greg Arnold wrote:
On 5/7/2013 9:23 AM, Tony wrote:

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 11:02:14 AM UTC-5, Don Johnstone wrote:

At 14:07 07 May 2013, Bill D wrote: On Monday, May 6, 2013 10:46:40 PM UTC-6, Waveguru wrote: If we had slowed down a little, and tightened up the tension a bit, we could have added a couple hundred more feet? What do you think about the "Payout Winch"? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5WDiHHgua8 Boggs I think if you had a real winch and learned how to use it safely, you'd get a lot higher. I think that is the most complicated and potentially dangerous method of winch launching that I have ever seen. I am completely sold on winching, having made over 10000 launches on many types of winch over the years. I have to say that some of the winches I have used, including a converted Rover car have been less than ideal, and perhaps a little unwise, but this has to be the most foolhardy version I have ever come across. I would be the first to admit that there are several potential hazards in winch launching but a system as complex as that is an accident ju

st waiting to happen. Please stop it guys, get a proper conventional winch if that is the way you want to go, or go to a straight forward auto tow.



i'm interested to hear more about your opinion. Gary's payout winch basically has built in tension control in that if, say, the glider hits a thermal on the climb, instead of the line loading up and breaking, it just lets out more line so you get to use that thermal to climb higher.



hang glider guys use payout winches a lot to launch in the flat lands.





Their stall speed is a lot slower. I am not sure that I understand how

you could use a payout winch with a glider unless the truck is driving

at a tremendous speed.

That's the basic problem. Payout winches are less a winch launch than auto-tow with a variable rope length and a built-in rope management system. In a traditional auto-tow, you must set aside enough distance for the tow vehicle to accelerate to tow speed and then stop at the far end plus the rope length - what's left is used for the launch.

The payout scheme helps with the acceleration phase in that the tow vehicle can accelerate while paying out rope so the acceleration distance and rope length requirements overlap then at the departure end, the tow vehicle can stop as fast as possible while the on-board winch pulls in the slack rope. All this is much easier with a slow hang glider.

The takeoff roll seemed slow and the climb angle seemed shallow similar to auto-tow indicating the height achieved was lower than traditional winches where the takeoff roll is very short and the climb angle is around 45 degrees.

Low achieved height can be a safety issue. I call it the "end trap" where the glider reaches the departure end without enough height to safely turn back and nowhere to land ahead. This doesn't mean I think what Gary is doing is unsafe. That depends on the options available to the pilot in the event of a launch failure.

A few safety issues safety issues.
The strop. i.e. the rope between the rings and the parachute appears to be
very flexible. If the glider roles forward when taking up slack and overuns
the cable it can easily get caught in the wheel box meaning the glider
cannot release at the top of the launch. Encasing this bit of rope in a
plastic tube (garden hose) should aleviate the problem.

This strop should also be quite long. We were using a short one at Lasham
for years until we had a winch failure just as the glider left the ground.
The chute opened and draped itself over the cockpit when the glider was a a
few feet in the air. A wonderful cure for constipation.

The payout winch does not appear to have any form of guilotine.
If the glider cannot release you need to have some way of freeing it from
the winch so it has a chance to make a landing.

The BGA advice on winch launching can be found here_
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...hlaunching.htm

Here's another video of our payout winch in operation at the Alvord Desert:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP8bVgG8xJc

Boggs