![]() |
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 5:53:34 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Steve, The holy grail of glider technology is the ability to read the strength of thermals at a distance. So far, accomplishing that has evaded all those who have tried. PowerFlarm offers the best hope for doing just that on a limited scale when there are other gliders in a cooperating network. If you want to view that as a leeching tool, so be it. Glider racing is inherently a cooperating process. This holy grail has been working for decades already: Look out and see how fast the others climb. If they're up faster than yourself, join them. Works for me (well, on a moderate scale proportional to my training level). Having my eyes inside the cockpit and trying to match little dots with associated numbers on a display with gliders out there does not help particularly. Neither does it improve safety. WRT Stealth mode: I reiterate, we do *not* recommend it. Neither does it make you intrackable. What it does: It removes some information: Ground speed, track and in particular, vertical speed. It also 'obfuscates' altitude by adding some random numbers. Best --Gerhard (FLARM dev mgr) Thanks for clearing this up Gerhard. I was under the impression that the position reporting (or lack of) was a bit more symmetric in stealth mode... and I would strongly encourage you to make it so. It may seem silly in Europe, but US racing puts a premium on independent action. (Speaking to Steve' point) The day that Pez D. Spencer can plot thermal strength and location via flarm data at 6 miles or more is not one I personally look forward to. That's no more "holy grail" to competition soaring than "Guitar Hero" is to performance music. The hope here is that "lone wolf" US competitors will see enough value in stealth mode used *voluntarily* that we won't see either a drop in racing participation or a push for mandatory stealth mode. Best, Evan Ludeman / T8 |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
Everyone seems to assume that less able pilots will want to leech off of the faster ones. Not so! I am not one of the fastest cross-country pilots, but have long abandoned any idea of leeching - I find it easier to locate my own thermals, thank you very much!
There are, however, a few pilots whose presence in the same thermal make me uncomfortable - I'll be using Flarm to steer clear of them! Mike |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 4:11:35 AM UTC-7, Evan Ludeman wrote:
On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 5:53:34 AM UTC-4, wrote: Steve, The holy grail of glider technology is the ability to read the strength of thermals at a distance. So far, accomplishing that has evaded all those who have tried. PowerFlarm offers the best hope for doing just that on a limited scale when there are other gliders in a cooperating network. If you want to view that as a leeching tool, so be it. Glider racing is inherently a cooperating process. This holy grail has been working for decades already: Look out and see how fast the others climb. If they're up faster than yourself, join them. Works for me (well, on a moderate scale proportional to my training level). Having my eyes inside the cockpit and trying to match little dots with associated numbers on a display with gliders out there does not help particularly. Neither does it improve safety. WRT Stealth mode: I reiterate, we do *not* recommend it. Neither does it make you intrackable. What it does: It removes some information: Ground speed, track and in particular, vertical speed. It also 'obfuscates' altitude by adding some random numbers. Best --Gerhard (FLARM dev mgr) Thanks for clearing this up Gerhard. I was under the impression that the position reporting (or lack of) was a bit more symmetric in stealth mode.... and I would strongly encourage you to make it so. It may seem silly in Europe, but US racing puts a premium on independent action. (Speaking to Steve' point) The day that Pez D. Spencer can plot thermal strength and location via flarm data at 6 miles or more is not one I personally look forward to. That's no more "holy grail" to competition soaring than "Guitar Hero" is to performance music. The hope here is that "lone wolf" US competitors will see enough value in stealth mode used *voluntarily* that we won't see either a drop in racing participation or a push for mandatory stealth mode. Best, Evan Ludeman / T8 I would have to say that some racing pilot feel as Evan does but not all nor do I believe a majority. So: I have said this before put it on the pilot opinion poll as see what shakes out. Richard. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 12:09:09 PM UTC-4, Richard wrote:
On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 4:11:35 AM UTC-7, Evan Ludeman wrote: On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 5:53:34 AM UTC-4, wrote: Steve, The holy grail of glider technology is the ability to read the strength of thermals at a distance. So far, accomplishing that has evaded all those who have tried. PowerFlarm offers the best hope for doing just that on a limited scale when there are other gliders in a cooperating network. If you want to view that as a leeching tool, so be it. Glider racing is inherently a cooperating process. This holy grail has been working for decades already: Look out and see how fast the others climb. If they're up faster than yourself, join them. Works for me (well, on a moderate scale proportional to my training level). Having my eyes inside the cockpit and trying to match little dots with associated numbers on a display with gliders out there does not help particularly. Neither does it improve safety. WRT Stealth mode: I reiterate, we do *not* recommend it. Neither does it make you intrackable. What it does: It removes some information: Ground speed, track and in particular, vertical speed. It also 'obfuscates' altitude by adding some random numbers. Best --Gerhard (FLARM dev mgr) Thanks for clearing this up Gerhard. I was under the impression that the position reporting (or lack of) was a bit more symmetric in stealth mode.... and I would strongly encourage you to make it so. It may seem silly in Europe, but US racing puts a premium on independent action. (Speaking to Steve' point) The day that Pez D. Spencer can plot thermal strength and location via flarm data at 6 miles or more is not one I personally look forward to. That's no more "holy grail" to competition soaring than "Guitar Hero" is to performance music. The hope here is that "lone wolf" US competitors will see enough value in stealth mode used *voluntarily* that we won't see either a drop in racing participation or a push for mandatory stealth mode. Best, Evan Ludeman / T8 I would have to say that some racing pilot feel as Evan does but not all nor do I believe a majority. So: I have said this before put it on the pilot opinion poll as see what shakes out. Richard. The RC took to position of strongly encouraging the voluntary implementation of Flarm in the contest community. The sporting considerations like those mentioned in this thread were well known and anticipated. It was agreed that at some point after Flarm is well accepted, that these issues could, and would be raised. Part of the logic in this was that real world experience is a much better guide to decision making than speculation. It is technically possible and practical, occording to Flarm representatives, to create a version that removes the avilablity of much tactical information,such as climb rates, and the ability to export such information to external devices, while preserving the anti collision aspects. It is also possible to do so such that this can be locked in for the period of a contest such that no monitoring other than a one time check would be required. This was described during our exchages as "US Stealth". There will need to be a considerable amount of discussion on this and very well written, balanced poll questions for the RC to determine the path forward for US competition. UH - Former RC member and Chair |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
I am flying with a portable unit and the range is 2-4nm and usually the 4nm in a direction I'm not looking.
I find the data useful for situational awareness, but far less useful for tactical decision making during a contest. Primarily because I typically have seen a circling glider well before they are visible on Flarm. If they were ten miles out, that would seem to be essentially useless information for me. That's 6-7 minutes at a pretty fast pace before I'm going to reach where they were. Assuming I saw them on flarm climbing at 10knots. Before I could reach them, they'd be topped out and gone and I'm left hoping that I can find that same thermal either recycling or miraculously still working.. Additionally, we are all leeches to some degree. If you spot a glider out in front of you or near your course line and they appear to be climbing well (or are confirmed by Flarm) I don't think any competitive pilot is going to avoid their thermal to be a sport and find their own lift. If they are a slower pilot you're going to probably leave them behind, a slightly faster pilot may end up marking lift for you. A much faster pilot will leave you behind. My personal experience with Flarm in a contest is that I did not use it at all for competitor analysis. I always spotted a glider visually before getting an Alert to new traffic. If they were climbing and looked to be marking a good climb, I was heading that way based on visual cues, not Flarm cues. I was team flying with a partner and kept it locked on him as long as he was closest. For that it was hugely valuable. When he was on my 5,6,7 position, I knew and it reduced the radio calls needed to alert each other to our position when tight and in a blind spot. For all of the other aspects of team flying, it was really a non factor as we used radio calls for more accurate info on lines and climb rate. Non competition use I find that the buddy flying aspect is really only valuable for giving a higher degree of precision to what you can see with the eyeball. You're on glide with a friend, separated by 1/2 a mile. You know they are above or below you. You can see that change faster than inspect the Flarm. The Flarm just tells you that they are 150ft and now 160ft higher. It's interesting, but I just don't see it as more useful than what you get by looking outside. Morgan |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Soaring Cafe ".net" | A new online site for competition news | Bill Elliott | Soaring | 0 | March 11th 11 04:20 PM |
Flarm and stealth | John Cochrane[_2_] | Soaring | 47 | November 3rd 10 06:19 AM |
"Stealth" Secret Service aircraft | No Name | Piloting | 10 | August 21st 08 12:12 AM |
help me remember a book about stealth aircraft and a fictional bomber called "Blackmagic" | Scaler | Naval Aviation | 9 | September 22nd 07 09:43 PM |
"Eight more F-22 stealth fighters arrive in Japan" | Mike[_1_] | Naval Aviation | 1 | February 18th 07 11:56 PM |