Spin training for US pilots?

On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 1:59:01 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 9:58:23 AM UTC-7, wrote:





Yes, spins are permitted except in Landing Flap and appear in the Aircraft Flight Manual for the ASW-27, as do Loops, Lazy Eights, Chandelles and Stall Turns. I practice spins, spin entries and recovery pretty much every season and perform the other maneuvers regularly. I am at a loss to understand the idea presented earlier that spin practice adds as as much risk as benefit - a quick look at the NTSB accident summaries undercuts this idea. I know of no one who has been in a fatal spin training accident, while on the other hand...



Hmmm, wonder why in the 27 but not the 26. What about the 29 and 31, anybody know?



I, too, find the idea that spin training is as dangerous as accidental (untrained!) spins unbelievable. Is there any shred of data to back that supposition?

The official view (not mine) is accidental spins are rare but mandating spin training would subject everyone to them making the overall risk comparable. There have been spin training accidents in the UK though not recently in the US as far as I know.

http://rdd.me/a5prkekd

I can't find a reference but I recall several papers showing those countries who mandated spin training actually had more spin accidents.

In recent years, there have been few cases of fully developed spins continuing through thousands of feet of altitude all the way to impact. This is what people imagine but it's very rare.

A far more common "spin accident" sees the aircraft completing less than one turn before impact. These are probably an incipient spin immediately transitioning to a spiral dive. In this case, the classic spin recovery technique taught at altitude is of little use and may even be dangerous. Far more useful is recognizing an impending spin departure and correcting it before it gets out of hand.

On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:36:42 PM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:

The official view (not mine) is accidental spins are rare but mandating spin training would subject everyone to them making the overall risk comparable. There have been spin training accidents in the UK though not recently in the US as far as I know.

....

A far more common "spin accident" sees the aircraft completing less than one turn before impact. These are probably an incipient spin immediately transitioning to a spiral dive. In this case, the classic spin recovery technique taught at altitude is of little use and may even be dangerous.


We should be clear to distinguish between gliders and GA more broadly. I would argue that gliders have a higher risk of accidental spins and lower risk associated with properly executed practice. Certainly it's not a good idea to practice spins at close to pattern altitude or in an aircraft with unpredictable spin characteristics, without a parachute, without proper instruction, etc.

It should go without saying that if you are going to practice spins you will benefit more from practicing the kinds of entries that are likely to catch you by surprise (low bank angle, over-ruddered turns). I disagree with the idea that being familiar with how a glider behaves in a spin entry at a safe altitude is somehow worse for a pilot than having to figure it out for the first time at 300'.

If you can find the official study, I'd love to see it. I'm wondering whether they simply assume that most CFIs are simply not competent enough pilots to be trusted not to do really dumb things should spin training be mandated or that a single fatality from mandated spin training is worse from a liability perspective than many more from accidental stall/spins.

Mandated or not I think it's a good idea to get familiar with what happens to your glider under the circumstances that kill more glider pilots than any other phase of flight.

9B

"snip


A far more common "spin accident" sees the aircraft completing less than one
turn before impact. These are probably an incipient spin immediately
transitioning to a spiral dive. In this case, the classic spin recovery
technique taught at altitude is of little use and may even be dangerous.
Far more useful is recognizing an impending spin departure and correcting it
before it gets out of hand.

end snip

....Or the uncoordinated stall at very low altitude...

Dan