PowerFlarm at Region 9 Contest

No, Kirk, I think I *do* understand.

For *my* type of flying, I see no benefit to having warnings of
Flarm-equipped aircraft since I don't fly contests and I don't fly in the
busiest areas around Moriarty. Hell, I don't fly anywhere near other
gliders and I fly higher than all but a few GA aircraft so it's unlikely
I'll ever see an alert. You will see my Mode-S transponder if you get near
me and you'll turn away. There's no need for you to tell me. Besides, I'm
looking outside so I probably saw you any way.

I agree absolutely that Flarm should be mandatory at contests, along with
parachutes, and male external catheters. I don't care. I won't be there.

As to maneuvering, I once spotted a small dot on the horizon as I was
thermalling. Completing ONE revolution, I saw a B-767 maneuvering to avoid
me. Thank God he had head outside instead of up his ass staring at doo-dads
on his wonderful glass panel!

I don't expect ATC to talk to every light plane and warn him of my presence.
On the other hand, I don't see too many of them at the altitudes I fly.

Can no one understand that my interest is to have ATC vector IFR traffic
around me and that I have absolutely no interest in contests or gaggles or
(the glider equivalent of) oil burner routes?


"kirk.stant" wrote in message
...
Dan, I think you don't completely understand what a PowerFlarm provides: It
allows you to pick up other PF-equipped gliders, and provides collision
warning if necessary (had a couple of those at R9 myself). But it also
detects and displays transponder-equipped traffic, and Mode-S/ADS-b traffic.
I saw several of those, including other gliders who had their PF in Stealth
mode later in the contest.

A transponder is nice if you are in a situation where you can talk to center
and they are talking to other traffic. But in some areas, everybody is VFR
and not everybody is talking to center - how does center tell that VFR 1200
Bonanza to look for the glider squawking 1202? In your situation, you will
have NO warning until he hopefully sees you and misses you. With a PF, I
will get a non-directional PCAS warning with his altitude and approximate
distance. Similar, but not as good (yet) as PCAS, but otherwise workable.

I agree the best is to have both PF and a Mode S transponder. But to say
that the transponder alone gives you better protection from ALL traffic than
a PF is wrong.

And really, you don't think you can maneuver away from an airliners
flightpath with 2 - 3 miles warning? Funny, I haven't had that problem even
with visual pickups of airliners.

Personally, I would like Flarm to be mandatory for ALL contests next year,
just like a parachute. And encourage Stealt mode be turned off during
regional contests - I found it a lot of fun to be aware of all the gliders
around me. For nationals, OK, stealth up, but I've got a feeling that again
(like team flying) we will be setting ourselves up for a beat-down at the
World's!

Like Mike said earlier - this year at Moriarty we had one real close
near-midair (7 ft separation), and at least one of those gliders didn't
have a Flarm installed. Meanwhile, those of us with Flarm installed had
several collision warnings that we resolved after being cued by the Flarm
where to look.

I'm convinced. It works. And if really isn't that tough to install - plus
it's easy to check the detection range online after a few flights with other
Flarm-equipped gliders.

Kirk
66

On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 5:59:54 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
No, Kirk, I think I *do* understand.



For *my* type of flying, I see no benefit to having warnings of

Flarm-equipped aircraft since I don't fly contests and I don't fly in the

busiest areas around Moriarty. Hell, I don't fly anywhere near other

gliders and I fly higher than all but a few GA aircraft so it's unlikely

I'll ever see an alert. You will see my Mode-S transponder if you get near

me and you'll turn away. There's no need for you to tell me. Besides, I'm

looking outside so I probably saw you any way.



I agree absolutely that Flarm should be mandatory at contests, along with

parachutes, and male external catheters. I don't care. I won't be there.



As to maneuvering, I once spotted a small dot on the horizon as I was

thermalling. Completing ONE revolution, I saw a B-767 maneuvering to avoid

me. Thank God he had head outside instead of up his ass staring at doo-dads

on his wonderful glass panel!



I don't expect ATC to talk to every light plane and warn him of my presence.

On the other hand, I don't see too many of them at the altitudes I fly.



Can no one understand that my interest is to have ATC vector IFR traffic

around me and that I have absolutely no interest in contests or gaggles or

(the glider equivalent of) oil burner routes?





"kirk.stant" wrote in message

...

Dan, I think you don't completely understand what a PowerFlarm provides: It

allows you to pick up other PF-equipped gliders, and provides collision

warning if necessary (had a couple of those at R9 myself). But it also

detects and displays transponder-equipped traffic, and Mode-S/ADS-b traffic.

I saw several of those, including other gliders who had their PF in Stealth

mode later in the contest.



A transponder is nice if you are in a situation where you can talk to center

and they are talking to other traffic. But in some areas, everybody is VFR

and not everybody is talking to center - how does center tell that VFR 1200

Bonanza to look for the glider squawking 1202? In your situation, you will

have NO warning until he hopefully sees you and misses you. With a PF, I

will get a non-directional PCAS warning with his altitude and approximate

distance. Similar, but not as good (yet) as PCAS, but otherwise workable.



I agree the best is to have both PF and a Mode S transponder. But to say

that the transponder alone gives you better protection from ALL traffic than

a PF is wrong.



And really, you don't think you can maneuver away from an airliners

flightpath with 2 - 3 miles warning? Funny, I haven't had that problem even

with visual pickups of airliners.



Personally, I would like Flarm to be mandatory for ALL contests next year,

just like a parachute. And encourage Stealt mode be turned off during

regional contests - I found it a lot of fun to be aware of all the gliders

around me. For nationals, OK, stealth up, but I've got a feeling that again

(like team flying) we will be setting ourselves up for a beat-down at the

World's!



Like Mike said earlier - this year at Moriarty we had one real close

near-midair (7 ft separation), and at least one of those gliders didn't

have a Flarm installed. Meanwhile, those of us with Flarm installed had

several collision warnings that we resolved after being cued by the Flarm

where to look.



I'm convinced. It works. And if really isn't that tough to install - plus

it's easy to check the detection range online after a few flights with other

Flarm-equipped gliders.



Kirk

66

Dan,

More than you may think understand your position and agree with you. They see no point to be chastised is all. I had a choice between a Flarm and transponder and chose the transponder-a lowly mode C - what I could afford.

Mike

On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:56:35 PM UTC-7, mike wrote:

PowerFlarm works best if most gliders use it. Offering not to fly when more than a few glider are airborne or promising not to climb in the areas of good lift, while generous offers, strain credulity a bit.

I expect a fair amount of sincere rationalizing between now and broad Flarm adoption in the US. It's a free country, but I will continue to encourage as many of my soaring friends to voluntarily adopt Flarm as I can. 100% adoption at contests is the short-term goal.

9B

I have a plan. I'll publish my flight schedule and the Flarm users can stay
on the ground! That way only people looking outside will be in the air.


wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:56:35 PM UTC-7, mike wrote:

PowerFlarm works best if most gliders use it. Offering not to fly when more
than a few glider are airborne or promising not to climb in the areas of
good lift, while generous offers, strain credulity a bit.

I expect a fair amount of sincere rationalizing between now and broad Flarm
adoption in the US. It's a free country, but I will continue to encourage as
many of my soaring friends to voluntarily adopt Flarm as I can. 100%
adoption at contests is the short-term goal.

9B

On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 7:20:26 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
I have a plan. I'll publish my flight schedule and the Flarm users can stay
on the ground! That way only people looking outside will be in the air.


You suggested the opposite in your earlier post Dan. I quote:

"I generally fly alone or with one other glider and then we're in
constant communication. If we lose sight, we leave the thermal.
Look back at my OLC traces and you'll see that I don't follow the shear
lines all day to maximize speed and distance points. I fly for fun and I
enjoy exploring those places where the really fast guys don't go that often
because it slows them down."

I suspect neither of your statements are totally serious/accurate. Heat of debate.

Those of us who generally fly with other gliders in the vicinity and who try to fly where the best lift is have found Flarm to be a Godsend, not a fad and a complement to transponders, not a substitute. Some have had to try it to be convinced and certainly there are still improvements to be debated over.

Flarm's arrival has underscored one thing that I always knew to be true intellectually: humans are terrible at estimating the probability of rare, catastrophic events. Relying on past experience ("that's never happened to me") is a poor way to evaluate something like Flarm - particularly if you haven't tried it. My first flight I was shocked at how many gliders come close to you that you never see.

As I said it's a free country. If you fly alone all the time, not a problem, but don't be surprised if on occasions when more than a couple of glider pilots come together to fly they start treating you a bit like you have a bad odor. That may not matter to you at all, just understand that they are acting that way because it matters to them.

9B

Hi,

the pilot in the foto linked below might believe he's flying alone
with just his buddy around.

http://www.flarm.com/pics/eye_limita...the-danger.png

Try to identify the threat in the first image. You have
an estimated 8 seconds until impact.

Best
--Gerhard (FLARM dev mgr)





































Solution:
http://www.flarm.com/pics/eye_limitations/solution.png







You suggested the opposite in your earlier post Dan. I quote:

"I generally fly alone or with one other glider and then we're in
constant communication. If we lose sight, we leave the thermal.

Gerhart, that was an excellent example.