Cross country question? How is it done today?

What happens if your GPS dies?

Same things that happens if my ruler ends up behind my seat, or I make a gross error in the slide rule calculations. I fly field to field, until I realize I am not going to make it to the next field (kinda easy to see, the field is rising in my canbopy). I pick one of the 3 fields I have selected as a possible landout for this scenario, and I land in it.

What happens if your GPS dies?

Same things that happens if my ruler ends up behind my seat, or I make a gross error in the slide rule calculations. I fly field to field, until I realize I am not going to make it to the next field (kinda easy to see, the field is rising in my canopy). I pick one of the 3 fields I have selected as a possible landout for this scenario, and I land in it.

Exactly. You already knew the answer to your question.
Make sure your batteries are good and use the GPS. It is far easier and faster to use than the old methods. I can't even imagine unfolding a map in the confines of my sailplane. If the GPS fails, just fly conservatively, stay as high as possible and choose a good field if you can't make it to your goal.

On Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:53:09 PM UTC-4, Soartech wrote:
What happens if your GPS dies?



Same things that happens if my ruler ends up behind my seat, or I make a gross error in the slide rule calculations. I fly field to field, until I realize I am not going to make it to the next field (kinda easy to see, the field is rising in my canopy). I pick one of the 3 fields I have selected as a possible landout for this scenario, and I land in it.



Exactly. You already knew the answer to your question.

Make sure your batteries are good and use the GPS. It is far easier and faster to use than the old methods. I can't even imagine unfolding a map in the confines of my sailplane. If the GPS fails, just fly conservatively, stay as high as possible and choose a good field if you can't make it to your goal.

Thanks, I really appreciate your opinion on this.

Tom

On 9/11/2013 10:53 AM, Soartech wrote:


Snip... I can't even imagine unfolding a map in the confines of my
sailplane.

Not to be contentious, but why would anyone seriously consider "unfolding a
map" in the confines of a sailplane? I certainly never did. I simply
pre-folded my sectional to place my launch site more or less in the middle of
a flat rectangle of map, folded wisely (as in, if I flew off the pre-selected
area, the next en-route area was no more than a fold away [sometimes two, if I
wished to keep my map rectangle the same size]), and occasionally hauled it
out as necessary (usually to double-check a town or distance). In less
familiar to me areas, I sometimes used my non-stick thumb to keep my place on
the sectional.

It's not as if glider XC speed-made-good is fast enough to warrant constant
refolding. Point being if refolding really is a problem, something needs to be
rethought...

Kinda-sorta related to the original question, try not and overthink XC issues.

Priority One is always to soar - as in, remain aloft. All the other stuff
merely tags along...navigation, can I get "there," O2 altitude (I know, not
generally a concern in FL), communication, speed made good, etc., etc.

Priority Two is to always be prepared (mentally and physically - as in you can
actually GET to your chosen field) to safely land along the way, because if
you fly XC you ARE going to make off-field landings, regardless of ship type.
To think otherwise is to make a serious mental error.

How you accomplish "priorities 3 through infinity" should reflect how you
think and interact with "all your soaring accoutrements." KISS is good, IMHO.

For example, I've never found it difficult/onerous to perform mental glide
calculations while on course. "X miles per thousand feet" and a decent
awareness of where I am (no cheating; you're AT wherever it is you're directly
above, NOT what you can see at some slight angle!) was/is dirt simple for me.
Where I can get from "there" sorts of "glider calculations" aren't
fundamentally different than is estimating where I plan to gas up the vehicle
when driving through western boonies...merely the view is distinctly more
pleasurable!

Bob - simple is good - W.

P.S. It would be fascinating to know the rates of airspace violations by
glider guiders, pre- and post-GPS. Even a cursory reading of contest reports
and scores on the SSA website quickly reveals a continuing litany of "airspace
violation penalties." GPS = "complete navigational precision?" Not!

On Wednesday, September 11, 2013 4:48:25 PM UTC-5, BobW wrote:
On 9/11/2013 10:53 AM, Soartech wrote:





Snip... I can't even imagine unfolding a map in the confines of my

sailplane.



Not to be contentious, but why would anyone seriously consider "unfolding a

map" in the confines of a sailplane? I certainly never did. I simply

pre-folded my sectional to place my launch site more or less in the middle of

a flat rectangle of map, folded wisely (as in, if I flew off the pre-selected

area, the next en-route area was no more than a fold away [sometimes two, if I

wished to keep my map rectangle the same size]), and occasionally hauled it

out as necessary (usually to double-check a town or distance). In less

familiar to me areas, I sometimes used my non-stick thumb to keep my place on

the sectional.



It's not as if glider XC speed-made-good is fast enough to warrant constant

refolding. Point being if refolding really is a problem, something needs to be

rethought...



Kinda-sorta related to the original question, try not and overthink XC issues.



Priority One is always to soar - as in, remain aloft. All the other stuff

merely tags along...navigation, can I get "there," O2 altitude (I know, not

generally a concern in FL), communication, speed made good, etc., etc.



Priority Two is to always be prepared (mentally and physically - as in you can

actually GET to your chosen field) to safely land along the way, because if

you fly XC you ARE going to make off-field landings, regardless of ship type.

To think otherwise is to make a serious mental error.



How you accomplish "priorities 3 through infinity" should reflect how you

think and interact with "all your soaring accoutrements." KISS is good, IMHO.



For example, I've never found it difficult/onerous to perform mental glide

calculations while on course. "X miles per thousand feet" and a decent

awareness of where I am (no cheating; you're AT wherever it is you're directly

above, NOT what you can see at some slight angle!) was/is dirt simple for me.

Where I can get from "there" sorts of "glider calculations" aren't

fundamentally different than is estimating where I plan to gas up the vehicle

when driving through western boonies...merely the view is distinctly more

pleasurable!



Bob - simple is good - W.



P.S. It would be fascinating to know the rates of airspace violations by

glider guiders, pre- and post-GPS. Even a cursory reading of contest reports

and scores on the SSA website quickly reveals a continuing litany of "airspace

violation penalties." GPS = "complete navigational precision?" Not!

The GPS just makes the airspace violation much easier to prove.

I started off without a GPS but that was only because I couldn't afford one.. Now I don't leave home without it. In a 1-26 though, it's not too hard to tell whether or not you can glide to the next field. You don't need an advanced glide computer. If you can't see it you can't make it and if you can see it you might be able to make it. The only exception is if you can't see it because the nose is in the way, in which case you probably can make it. These same rules apply when I fly the Cherokee XC. Have fun!

On Wed, 11 Sep 2013 15:48:25 -0600, BobW wrote:

P.S. It would be fascinating to know the rates of airspace violations by
glider guiders, pre- and post-GPS. Even a cursory reading of contest
reports and scores on the SSA website quickly reveals a continuing
litany of "airspace violation penalties." GPS = "complete navigational
precision?" Not!

Indeed, but there are different sorts of GPS units. If you ask that
question of a pilot flying with a vanilla device such as a Garmin GPS II+
or eTrex which points at your next waypoint and might tell you your cross
track error if you're lucky, I think the answer is that it doesn't do
anything more to keep you out of airspace than a map does.

However, if you're using even a very cheap satnav that is running LK8000,
XCSoar or equivalent with up to date map and airspace files and you've
set the airspace warnings appropriately, i.e. at least 500 feet vertical
warning and 60 seconds horizontal warning, then its very much easier to
stay clear of airspace.

Both programs will suppress airspace you're not in danger of entering:
this keeps the screen uncluttered. But, if you get within the vertical or
horizontal warning distances the airspace will be shown and an audible
alert is sounded.

In the UK its also possible to download a file containing plottable NOTAMs
for the day and to install that alongside the static airspace file for
use by XCSoar, LK8000, etc. This is excellent for avoiding temporary
NOTAMed airspace around air shows, major sporting events, etc.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Martin Gregorie wrote, On 9/11/2013 4:18 PM:
On Wed, 11 Sep 2013 15:48:25 -0600, BobW wrote:

P.S. It would be fascinating to know the rates of airspace violations by
glider guiders, pre- and post-GPS. Even a cursory reading of contest
reports and scores on the SSA website quickly reveals a continuing
litany of "airspace violation penalties." GPS = "complete navigational
precision?" Not!


snip

In the UK its also possible to download a file containing plottable NOTAMs
for the day and to install that alongside the static airspace file for
use by XCSoar, LK8000, etc. This is excellent for avoiding temporary
NOTAMed airspace around air shows, major sporting events, etc.

Thanks to Lynn Alley, US pilots can now do the same thing. With all the
fires we had in the West this year, getting the TFRs on the screen was
very useful.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

BobW wrote, On 9/11/2013 2:48 PM:
On 9/11/2013 10:53 AM, Soartech wrote:


Snip... I can't even imagine unfolding a map in the confines of my
sailplane.

Not to be contentious, but why would anyone seriously consider
"unfolding a map" in the confines of a sailplane? I certainly never did.
I simply pre-folded my sectional to place my launch site more or less in
the middle of a flat rectangle of map, folded wisely (as in, if I flew
off the pre-selected area, the next en-route area was no more than a
fold away [sometimes two, if I wished to keep my map rectangle the same
size]), and occasionally hauled it out as necessary (usually to
double-check a town or distance). In less familiar to me areas, I
sometimes used my non-stick thumb to keep my place on the sectional.

You must have fly in very different places than I do, and you must fly a
much lower L/d glider. Keeping the map(s) in the right place was
constant struggle for me, even in relatively roomy cockpits like the Std
Cirrus and ASW 20. and a huge pain in the 301 Libelle. Flying in places
like Nevada with a high performance glider means my airport can be 60 or
70 miles away and in reach, but it's on the other side of the fold.
Unfold, you say? Well, then my alternate, which might be behind me,
disappears.

Worst case: fly where four maps come together - super hassle trying keep
track of where I am and what my options are.

For example, I've never found it difficult/onerous to perform mental
glide calculations while on course. "X miles per thousand feet" and a
decent awareness of where I am (no cheating; you're AT wherever it is
you're directly above, NOT what you can see at some slight angle!)
was/is dirt simple for me. Where I can get from "there" sorts of "glider
calculations" aren't fundamentally different than is estimating where I
plan to gas up the vehicle when driving through western boonies...merely
the view is distinctly more pleasurable!

Sure, it's easy in flat lands, but not where there are mountains. I
can't use the distance/elevation of the airport, but have to use the
distance/elevation of somewhere along the mountain ridge that's between
me and the airport. That ups the mental effort a lot.

Bob - simple is good - W.

Agreed! But ... you find GPS complicated and maps simple; I find the
reverse.

P.S. It would be fascinating to know the rates of airspace violations by
glider guiders, pre- and post-GPS. Even a cursory reading of contest
reports and scores on the SSA website quickly reveals a continuing
litany of "airspace violation penalties." GPS = "complete navigational
precision?" Not!

The rates are much lower now, because now it's easier to avoid
unintentional violations, and pilots are much more motivated to avoid
intentional violations because they know they will be caught.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

On 9/11/2013 5:46 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
BobW wrote, On 9/11/2013 2:48 PM:
On 9/11/2013 10:53 AM, Soartech wrote:

Snip... I can't even imagine unfolding a map in the confines of my
sailplane.

Not to be contentious, but why would anyone seriously consider
"unfolding a map" in the confines of a sailplane? I certainly never did.
I simply pre-folded my sectional to place my launch site more or less in
the middle of a flat rectangle of map, folded wisely (as in, if I flew
off the pre-selected area, the next en-route area was no more than a
fold away [sometimes two, if I wished to keep my map rectangle the same
size]), and occasionally hauled it out as necessary (usually to
double-check a town or distance). In less familiar to me areas, I
sometimes used my non-stick thumb to keep my place on the sectional.

You must have fly in very different places than I do, and you must fly a much
lower L/d glider.

My soaring area since '79: generally a jagged-edged triangle bounded on the
south and east by a line between the panhandle of Texas to Moriarty, NM and
north up the front range of the Rockies in New Mexico, Colorado & Wyoming, &
west across the mountains usually less than 100 miles (l - o - n - g retrieve
if one can't get back across the continental divide limited my crewless
boldness when soaring from my home base of Boulder). Primary ship: 1st
generation, 15 meter glass Zuni I.

Keeping the map(s) in the right place was constant struggle
for me, even in relatively roomy cockpits like the Std Cirrus and ASW 20. and
a huge pain in the 301 Libelle. Flying in places like Nevada with a high
performance glider means my airport can be 60 or 70 miles away and in reach,
but it's on the other side of the fold. Unfold, you say? Well, then my
alternate, which might be behind me, disappears.

I stow maps beneath my thigh and/or behind the side stick (slightly more
convenient than the thigh)...or, leave 'em on my lap (side stick, again).

Maybe I navigate differently than many? In the absence of airspace issues
(i.e. generally the case in the above triangle), even in new-to-me areas I
don't generally care much *exactly* where I am, so long as I'm satisfied I'm
more or less along my intended course line. In the typical visibility of the
western U.S., navigation tends to be a piece of cake. So no need to be
constantly map referencing. For quick distance reference, I simply use
10-mile-increment circles centered on airports, until they overlap. I can't
recall ever having to go more than 50 miles with my circles in "airport
sparse" areas. Sort of a paper-based "bread crumb trail," I suppose. A quick
glance at the map and the running tape measure in my mind suffice for any
distance calculations necessary.

Worst case: fly where four maps come together - super hassle trying keep track
of where I am and what my options are.

Check out Dalhart, TX. Taped-together sectionals definitely recommended,
there. BTDT, using the above system. Worked fine for me.

Reiterating, I recommend using whatever works for Joe Pilot. Being a simple
minded kind of guy, I happen to appreciate simplicity.

Bob - never even mildly lost - W.

Bob Whelan wrote, On 9/11/2013 8:39 PM:
On 9/11/2013 5:46 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:


Worst case: fly where four maps come together - super hassle trying
keep track
of where I am and what my options are.

Check out Dalhart, TX. Taped-together sectionals definitely recommended,
there. BTDT, using the above system. Worked fine for me.

Reiterating, I recommend using whatever works for Joe Pilot. Being a
simple minded kind of guy, I happen to appreciate simplicity.

Bob - never even mildly lost - W.

I did all that, too, and what a bloody nuisance redoing it every year to
keep the charts up to date. There were other problems: over the years,
I've marked dozens and dozens of uncharted landing places on the maps.
Every map change meant tediously putting all these places on the new
map; with the GPS, I just update the database - easy and accurate. I can
also put comments on each database entry, making it easier to remember
what the field, duster strip, whatever is like.

Circles around airports? That worked when I didn't go very far, but with
my typical 200-350 mile flights - unworkable. Unless it's a super day, I
might target a 20 or more landing places as I work my way around the
task. Putting circles on every point in my database would make the map
almost unusable.

And then there is cost: I fly in 5 to 10 states in a typical season, so
buying new maps every year can equal the cost of a flight computer in
just a few years.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl