Florida Grand Prix

On Thursday, October 3, 2013 8:52:25 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Agreed. A set start time eliminates gaggling and leeching. Our current timed start was developed because historically you needed to fly through the gate, and the gate could not handle everyone at the same time. No more gate, and a wide start area makes starting everyone at the same time a bit more practical. The appeal of ending start gate roulette and leeching is very high. There are a lot of open questions. Yes, how many gliders can we safely handle. Here the issue is the first few gagggles, which will inevitably have most of the fleet. My sense like yours is that 10-15 is a reasonable maximum. Larger numbers may be safe too. At world contests everyone also leaves at the same time in a big gaggle of 40 or more, they just wait a few hours to do it! Another question is whether pilots will think it's fair to start everyone at the same time. I often seem to coast around for hours, then suddenly I'm at 2000' struggling when it's time to go. We don't always or even often fly in such predictable conditions that everyone can be right at MSH at the edge of the cylinder when it's time to go. One might say, well, that's the luck of the draw,but pilots have to like the format and if the whole race ends up being "where were you when the start gun went off" I think they won't find it that much fun. The question on the poll, which I'll suggest for fall RC meeting if it gets enough support, is to allow this start with no other changes to rules, by waiver, for regionals, so we can build some experience and answer the above questions. I know that "real" grand prix have all sorts of other rules like start lines, assigned tasks, and 0/0 finishes, but we need to KISS and not go writing a whole additional rule book. And the point really is not to create a "real" fire-eating grand prix, but to see if starting at the same time produces a more enjoyable race by eliminating start time games and leeching, without introducing safety or other problems. I hope you put your comments on the poll John Cochrane

From what have observed, the effect is more the opposite. First, it makes it the good tactic to start and stay with the group as much as possible. Then the objective is to be the high guy in the last thermal. Beat everybody home and you win.
It is remarkably hard to beat a fast gaggle, but very easy to be soundly beaten by it.
As for the start, if you are in the wrong place and low, you're pretty much hosed unless you have a remarkable flight.
It does have the favorable characteristic of eliminating the painful game of trying to out wait the group so as to start last in the gaggle.
The attraction , and a very real one for some(many?), is the sense of racing because the pilot sees the other gliders he is competing with.
Another view
UH

You may be right, but if you watch the playbacks of the FAI GP World Championship (thermal flatlands) the winners typically break away early and stay away. A bit like a road cycling race. Try to get out of sight and out of mind of the pack.

Regardless it will be interesting to see the gaggle tactics in GP. I see (and so do the pro's apparently) as it as being conservative in GP to join and remain with the gaggle even in flatland thermal flying.

Hope GP it catches on!

For the record, here are some good tracking video's:
(Usually the winners leave the gaggle and are well ahead)

https://vimeo.com/27014418
https://vimeo.com/27060949
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf7AOF0ECUc


Sean

From what have observed, the effect is more the opposite. First, it makes it the good tactic to start and stay with the group as much as possible. Then the objective is to be the high guy in the last thermal. Beat everybody home and you win.

It is remarkably hard to beat a fast gaggle, but very easy to be soundly beaten by it.

As for the start, if you are in the wrong place and low, you're pretty much hosed unless you have a remarkable flight.

It does have the favorable characteristic of eliminating the painful game of trying to out wait the group so as to start last in the gaggle.

The attraction , and a very real one for some(many?), is the sense of racing because the pilot sees the other gliders he is competing with.

Another view

UH

I think UH is right about strategy under grand prix rules, when beating the other guy by an inch is the same as by a mile. Then the right strategy is like a sailboat race. In the grand prix I watched, I was interested that they didn't do this as much as I thought.

But that's less obvious if we start a regular US race this way -- a time-limited task, TAT or MAT, with a group of gliders with different handicaps, out of a 5 mile start cylinder, and with cumulative 1000 point scoring.

Now leaving a cautious gaggle and piling on the miles is a good strategy. And the gaggle is less likely to stick together anyway.

Still, this is theory until we try it, and I hope we can try a few next year.

John Cochrane

And, if everyone starts at the same time on a time-limited task, then they will all finish at the same time, so recovering everyone on the runway could be a challenge.

I am not a big fan of the GP format. I'm one of the believers that the GP race is won (or lost) at the start.

The magnitude of the win is masked by the simplified scoring system, so there is no incentive to go faster than just enough to beat second place.

I think GP is best suited as a marketing tool, not a racing tool and that it can and should be used for local contests, but not for National and WGC level competitions.

And, if everyone starts at the same time on a time-limited task, then they will all finish at the same time, so recovering everyone on the runway could be a challenge.

JC: Well, that happens anyway. A good point for high finishes.

I am not a big fan of the GP format. I'm one of the believers that the GP race is won (or lost) at the start.

JC: The IGC format is also won or lost at the start!


The magnitude of the win is masked by the simplified scoring system, so there is no incentive to go faster than just enough to beat second place.


JC: Absolutely. We're talking about changing the start time only, not 1000 point scoring. GP scoring there is also a huge incentive to do whatever it takes to beat the other guy by an inch.



I think GP is best suited as a marketing tool, not a racing tool and that it can and should be used for local contests, but not for National and WGC level competitions.


JC: Yes for the full GP. But we're talking about starting everyone at the same time, and keeping everything else the same. Including, turn area tasks, handicaps, regular start and finish geometry, etc. etc.

I don't understand how starting everyone at the same time but continuing to employ a MAT or TAT will make the day more exciting for the spectators or enjoyable for the contestants.

Neither of the above will be able to correlate finish time with the day's ranking. I was under the impression that the enjoyment of a Grand Prix was knowing at a glance what competitive position each contestant was in. IE, first one home wins. With contest tracking (especially as it matures) this could actually be interesting to spectators.

I have no beefs with the Regional Rules. However, I am interested in competing in a Grand Prix style event. If we are going to just start everyone at the same time and let them fly a MAT then I will review my pilot poll vote. One of the contests I flew had such poor CD radio performance I am not sure anyone could have known when the CD called the official start. I guess I will reread the pilot poll and make sure I voted correctly.

Lane
XF

In article ,
wrote:

I don't understand how starting everyone at the same time but continuing to
employ a MAT or TAT will make the day more exciting for the spectators or
enjoyable for the contestants.

Neither of the above will be able to correlate finish time with the day's
ranking. I was under the impression that the enjoyment of a Grand Prix was
knowing at a glance what competitive position each contestant was in. IE,
first one home wins. With contest tracking (especially as it matures) this
could actually be interesting to spectators.

I have no beefs with the Regional Rules. However, I am interested in
competing in a Grand Prix style event. If we are going to just start
everyone at the same time and let them fly a MAT then I will review my pilot
poll vote. One of the contests I flew had such poor CD radio performance I
am not sure anyone could have known when the CD called the official start. I
guess I will reread the pilot poll and make sure I voted correctly.

Lane
XF


I could not agree more! The beauty of the GP format (of which I was not
convinced before flying one this past weekend) is the sense of
immediacy. I think that is part of what is missing from MAT and AAT
tasks. You get to experience the results of your efforts in the moment.
Flying an assigned task with a GP start "concentrates the mind
wonderfully". I have had very few contests flights where I have
concentrated so hard on picking my path and flying with the utmost
efficiency. I know the others were doing the same. You could almost see
the little thought bubbles over each glider with each pilot thinking
"How do I get away from this SOB?".

The one word that sums up this little experiment in GP racing for me is
"satisfying". It was simpler, purer, more challenging, more immediately
gratifying. Let's keep it that way. No need to "gild the lily".

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Friday, October 4, 2013 11:02:30 PM UTC+2, WB wrote:

I could not agree more! The beauty of the GP format (of which I was not

convinced before flying one this past weekend) is the sense of

immediacy. I think that is part of what is missing from MAT and AAT

tasks. You get to experience the results of your efforts in the moment.

Flying an assigned task with a GP start "concentrates the mind

wonderfully". I have had very few contests flights where I have

concentrated so hard on picking my path and flying with the utmost

efficiency. I know the others were doing the same. You could almost see

the little thought bubbles over each glider with each pilot thinking

"How do I get away from this SOB?".



The one word that sums up this little experiment in GP racing for me is

"satisfying". It was simpler, purer, more challenging, more immediately

gratifying. Let's keep it that way. No need to "gild the lily".



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

Guess what - there is an easy way to get the same effect under current rules in the US: fly speed tasks, and during the pre-start maneuvering find an follow someone who you think you need to beat but is as good or better than you (or better, several of those guys). Then start within a few minutes of him (them). Works like a charm at smaller local races - been doing it at ASA contests for years!

Kirk
66

Most of the winners talks I've heard and the few that I've given usually include the phrase "I got a good start".

JC: Yes for the full GP. But we're talking about starting everyone at the same time, and keeping everything else the same. Including, turn area tasks, handicaps, regular start and finish geometry, etc. etc.

Here is a link to the international rules (pdf): http://www.fai.org/downloads/igc/SGPrules_V5

As your GP rules evolve, it will be amusing to watch as they deviate from the rules used by the rest of the world. Again.

-Pat