Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!

That's what we told to do when we first acquired our Tost
winches at Lasham, in order to contain the speed and get the
highest possible launches. Prior to that we autotowed, where you
had to initially climb quite gently as the acceleration was slow
and it took time to build up a safe speed. After a few cases when
K8's and similar lightweight gliders went into near vertical climbs
before breaking the weak link, we backed off the instruction.
Fortunately we didn't kill any of the pilots. Dunstable went on
launching quite steeply for some years until they had a fatality
caused by a flick spin. Certainly when we visited that club we
always used to hold our breath as we watched them winch
launching gliders. Some German pilots seem to pull up more
steeply than we now do, and I note from the accident statistics
published earlier in this thread that they have had a couple of
flick spin fatalities in recent times.

Derek Copeland

At 09:29 11 October 2013, John Galloway wrote:
At 06:31 11 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote:
One of the reasons the UK historically had a poor winch
launching safety record was that we copied German methods.
In
particular, when we first had powerful German Tost winches
we
were told to start with the stick hard back to contain the
speed.
This led to a number of (usually fatal) flick spin accidents, so
we
realised that this was not a good idea, as have the Germans.
We
now start with the stick forward of centre and control the
rotation rate, and haven't had a flick spin accident for several
years.


Del, when you say "we copied the German methods etc" - who
is
the "we"? It was 1969 that I first trained and soloed on the
winch
in the UK and I have never personally encountered instruction
to
start a winch launch with the stick hard back to contain the
speed.

John Galloway

On Friday, October 11, 2013 2:31:00 AM UTC-4, Derek C wrote:
.... we

were told to start with the stick hard back to contain the speed.

This led to a number of (usually fatal) flick spin accidents,...

What is a Flick Spin?

The simulation videos here http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...nch-safety.htm illustrate Flick Roll and Spin, but no Flick Spin.

At 18:43 12 October 2013, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Friday, October 11, 2013 2:31:00 AM UTC-4, Derek C wrote:
.... we

were told to start with the stick hard back to contain the speed.

This led to a number of (usually fatal) flick spin accidents,...

What is a Flick Spin?

The simulation videos here
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...nch-safety.htm
illustrate Flick
Roll and Spin, but no Flick Spin.


Same thing. Due to rapid pitch up caused by the rotational couple
effect (line of pull below c of g of glider), plus not controlling the
rate of rotation, causing the wings to stall and a flick roll can
follow. Mostly a problem associated with powerful winches and
very rapid acceleration.

Derek Copeland

At 18:43 12 October 2013, son_of_flubber wrote:

What is a Flick Spin?

A Flick Roll with enough room to segue into a properly developed spin
before you hit the ground?

Re winch launching. You guy's might like to check out the very
useful Safe winching leaflet and associated information put out by
the BGA after much thought and refinement of the process's. This
has resulted in a significant reduction in the number of
accidents/injury's in the UK from winch launching.

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...hlaunching.htm

Regards

Andy

Re winch launching. You guy's might like to check out the very
useful Safe winching leaflet and associated information put out by
the BGA after much thought and refinement of the process's. This
has resulted in a significant reduction in the number of
accidents/injury's in the UK from winch launching.

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...hlaunching.htm

Regards

Andy

The real point is that having your hand on the release may save your life,
to me that is a complete no brainer.


Thanks all for the good thoughts and ideas. I just want to make sure everyone remembers the title of this topic and it explicitly stated during aero tows. It is fine that people are talking about winch tows too but please don't confuse the two. They are separate types of operations and require different flying methods to stay as safe as possible. Keep your hand off the release during aero tows.

Thanks,
Bruno - B4

Oh!!!! So it,s OK to let your wingtip run along the ground during an areo
tow launch.?? NO NO NO Pull the bloody release when ever your wing is on
the gound THAT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE ONE DAY Soggy 16:16 07 October 2013,
wrote:
The real point is that having your hand on the release may save your
life=
,
to me that is a complete no brainer.


Thanks all for the good thoughts and ideas. I just want to make sure
everyo=
ne remembers the title of this topic and it explicitly stated during aero
t=
ows. It is fine that people are talking about winch tows too but please
don=
't confuse the two. They are separate types of operations and require
diffe=
rent flying methods to stay as safe as possible. Keep your hand off the
rel=
ease during aero tows.

Thanks,
Bruno - B4

Yes, it is OK to do that. I've done it a dozen or some times when the tow pilot came to retrieve me and there wasn't anyone to run the wing. It's never been a problem for me, even with a CG equipped ship.

-John, Q3


On Monday, October 7, 2013 2:30:59 PM UTC-4, John Marsh wrote:
Oh!!!! So it,s OK to let your wingtip run along the ground during an areo
tow launch.?? NO NO NO Pull the bloody release when ever your wing is on
the gound THAT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE ONE DAY Soggy

On Mon, 07 Oct 2013 18:30:59 +0000, John Marsh
wrote:

Oh!!!! So it,s OK to let your wingtip run along the ground during an areo
tow launch.?? NO NO NO Pull the bloody release when ever your wing is on
the gound THAT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE ONE DAY

Depends on the glider.
For probably 95 percent of the gliders you are correct.

But for instance the AS 22-2 (forerunner if the ASH-25) has absolutely
no aileron control on the first 200 ft of the ground roll, so in most
cases it drops a wing. Since it is usually flown with full water , the
wing tip hits hard and it takes some time to pick the wing up again.

On the other hand, it's got a a tail load of about 120 lbs on the tail
wheel, so it doesn't have the slightest tendency to ground loop.
And with a wing loading of 10.5 lbs / sqft it's not going to take of
inadvertedly either.

So during an aerotow it is possible and safe to pick up the wing
again. In this special glider.

Winch launch is a completely different animal though.

Cheers
Andreas