Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!

Hi Justin,

I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhaps be an
expert.

I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
somewhat ironic.

Terry Walsh





At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
Bill,

I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record, what
authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you are
so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals who
have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.

If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
opinions
to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the subject, I
will bow to your superior judgement.

Regards,

Justin


At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type of

accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come
up

with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a symptom
and

requires that the glider is released very early which is why the hand

should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
month

back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
glider

was written off.

What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
earth

is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release,
to

mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.



The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else has.

Useful document on the BGA website

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...ingleaflet.pdf

Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.

On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:
Hi Justin,

I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhaps be an
expert.

I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
somewhat ironic.

Terry Walsh





At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
Bill,

I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record, what
authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you are
so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals who
have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.

If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
opinions
to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the subject, I
will bow to your superior judgement.

Regards,

Justin


At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type of

accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come
up

with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a symptom
and

requires that the glider is released very early which is why the hand

should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
month

back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
glider

was written off.

What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
earth

is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release,
to

mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.



The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else has.

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:59:50 AM UTC-6, Fred Bear wrote:
Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.



On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:

Hi Justin,



I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels

gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhaps be an

expert.



I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most

certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part

somewhat ironic.



Terry Walsh











At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:

Bill,



I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record, what

authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you are

so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals who

have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.



If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your

opinions

to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the subject, I

will bow to your superior judgement.



Regards,



Justin





At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:

On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:



All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type of



accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come

up



with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a symptom

and



requires that the glider is released very early which is why the hand



should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a

month



back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the

glider



was written off.



What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this

earth



is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release,

to



mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.







The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else has.















What's ugly is death caused by incompetence.

Oh dear....

I do not wish to be associated with this post.

My post to Bill was rather direct, for which I will not apologize, however
the post below is unnecessary.

Bill, you have not identified yourself as Bill Daniels? You have not
addressed if your are in fact and authority on the subject or why you are
dismissive of the professionals opinion?

The leaflet that has been produced by the BGA and posted in this thread was
(in part) drafted by Peter Claiden who has been a glider pilot for as long
as I have been alive, but has also just received an OBE from HRH The Queen
on his retirement from the AAIB.

I think I am inclined to value his judgment.

JC


At 16:59 09 October 2013, Fred Bear wrote:
Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.

On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:
Hi Justin,

I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhaps
be
an
expert.

I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
somewhat ironic.

Terry Walsh





At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
Bill,

I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record,
what
authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you
are
so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals
who
have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.

If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
opinions
to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the
subject,
I
will bow to your superior judgement.

Regards,

Justin


At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type
of

accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come
up

with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a
symptom
and

requires that the glider is released very early which is why the
hand

should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
month

back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
glider

was written off.

What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
earth

is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release,
to

mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.



The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else
has.

Well said Justin & likewise I wish no association to arrogant behaviour and

rude postings about a persons origin, place of residence or physical
defining
features.

I value people's opinions even when I believe they are incorrect or
significantly misaligned with factual evidence, it's what allows me to take
a
balanced view on a subject.

I get particularly hacked off when people of 'authority' belittle genuine
effort
that is conducted by a few for the benefit of many others, especially when

those few give so much of their time in trying to address significant
safety
issues which affect us all.

If the evidence really does show that BGA winch launching incidents are now

reduced from double to a single magnitude worse than our German
counterparts then well done guys - let's keep on going with reducing it
further!

Bill - please take this in the spirit that it is intended, as I have never
met you
and only know of you what you post here. But your attitude does remind me
of the "shouty" instructor syndrome that we have tried very hard to
eradicate
in the country that I fly in - an unhelpful and dangerous position of
authority
that needs to be banished to history.

Proactive positive teaching is required here, not reactive dismissive
comment.
I truly believe the BGA initiatives are pushing hard with the former and
long
may this continue.

Must go as I need a cup of tea and they are about to play God save the
Queen at closedown on the Beeb.

Imperial, my arse (ass).

GG



At 19:35 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
Oh dear....

I do not wish to be associated with this post.

My post to Bill was rather direct, for which I will not apologize, howeve
the post below is unnecessary.

Bill, you have not identified yourself as Bill Daniels? You have no
addressed if your are in fact and authority on the subject or why you ar
dismissive of the professionals opinion?

The leaflet that has been produced by the BGA and posted in this thread
wa
(in part) drafted by Peter Claiden who has been a glider pilot for as lon
as I have been alive, but has also just received an OBE from HRH The Quee
on his retirement from the AAIB.

I think I am inclined to value his judgment.

JC


At 16:59 09 October 2013, Fred Bear wrote:
Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.

On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:
Hi Justin,

I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhap
be
an
expert.

I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
somewhat ironic.

Terry Walsh





At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
Bill,

I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record
what
authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you
are
so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professional
who
have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.

If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
opinions
to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in th
subject,
I
will bow to your superior judgement.

Regards,

Justin


At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone
wrote:

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this typ
of

accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has
come
up

with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is
symptom
and

requires that the glider is released very early which is why th
hand

should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
month

back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
glider

was written off.

What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
earth

is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early
release,
to

mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.



The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else
has.

Fred,

I did not intend this as a comment against Americans I know equally
arrogant people of many different national origins. I was simply commenting
that if this indeed Bill Daniels then he could be considered to be an
expert on winch operations, but his apparent refusal to accept any other
opinion than his own was more than a little arrogant. Since he had
mentioned imperial arrogance I found this ironic.

I do agree with his statement that accidental death is ugly whether caused
by incompetence or any other reason.

Terry Walsh


At 16:59 09 October 2013, Fred Bear wrote:
Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.

On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:
Hi Justin,

I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhaps
be
an
expert.

I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
somewhat ironic.

Terry Walsh





At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
Bill,

I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record,
what
authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you
are
so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals
who
have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.

If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
opinions
to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the
subject,
I
will bow to your superior judgement.

Regards,

Justin


At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type
of

accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come
up

with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a
symptom
and

requires that the glider is released very early which is why the
hand

should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
month

back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
glider

was written off.

What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
earth

is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release,
to

mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.



The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else
has.

On Thursday, October 10, 2013 4:05:22 AM UTC-6, Terry Walsh wrote:
Fred,



I did not intend this as a comment against Americans I know equally

arrogant people of many different national origins. I was simply commenting

that if this indeed Bill Daniels then he could be considered to be an

expert on winch operations, but his apparent refusal to accept any other

opinion than his own was more than a little arrogant.

I've let the UK "echo chamber" run a bit so they can all congratulate each other for fuzzy thinking.

Arrogant? Indignant and angry are a better words. Every time you screw up, it has enormous impact outside the UK. When those screw-ups are based on institutionalized nonsense, and you try to export that nonsense, it makes me angry. An example is the winch launch section in the 2013 Glider Flying Handbook.

The main source of my guidance isn't from the US, or my own imagination, it's the German SDO Segelflugbetriebsordnung. It contains about the best information on winch launch safety available.

The US stands accused of "doing few winch launches". That's true. Compared to the roughly one million annual launches in Germany, the UK doesn't do many either. That, and their superb safety record, makes Germany a far better source of safety information.

If you want an educational approach, read my thoughts on the acceleration phase and acceleration induced uncommanded rotation.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...celeration.pdf

OK Bill, here is my problem with your argument that all our problems are
basically due to too slow acceleration.

1. I have not seen or experienced these slow acceleration launches and they
are certainly not the norm at any site at which I have flown recently.

2. I have also auto towed (some years ago) where the acceleration is by
definition slow, I never saw a wing drop come close to an accident.

3. The same applies to aerotows, slow acceleration, here I have seen wing
drops and witnessed people releasing but no cartwheels.

4. The reason these wing drops have been fatal is that they occur just
before the glider ls ready to fly. in my mind this implies that the
acceleration was fast since the glider apparently goes from insufficient
aileron control to flying speed too quickly for the pilot to react. I
think perhaps , as Don said that the problem is actually yaw induced roll.

Based on what you say we in the UK have a much worse safety record than the
Germans, so accepting this I agree that we are apparently not getting
something right. I do not agree with your analysis and you have shown no
readiness to accept that there may be another different problem. This is
what I mean by arrogance. If as you say everybody outside UK agrees with
your argument why have none of them posted here to say so.

I think it is a problem caused by individual pilot errors rather than our
procedures. Why I am not sure although I do have some thoughts regarding
pilot currency.

Terry Walsh


At 17:47 13 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Thursday, October 10, 2013 4:05:22 AM UTC-6, Terry Walsh wrote:
Fred,
=20
=20
=20
I did not intend this as a comment against Americans I know equally
=20
arrogant people of many different national origins. I was simply
commenti=
ng
=20
that if this indeed Bill Daniels then he could be considered to be an
=20
expert on winch operations, but his apparent refusal to accept any
other
=20
opinion than his own was more than a little arrogant.

I've let the UK "echo chamber" run a bit so they can all congratulate
each
=
other for fuzzy thinking.

Arrogant? Indignant and angry are a better words. Every time you screw
up=
, it has enormous impact outside the UK. When those screw-ups are based
on=
institutionalized nonsense, and you try to export that nonsense, it
makes
=
me angry. An example is the winch launch section in the 2013 Glider
Flying=
Handbook.

The main source of my guidance isn't from the US, or my own imagination,
i=
t's the German SDO Segelflugbetriebsordnung. It contains about the best
inf=
ormation on winch launch safety available.

The US stands accused of "doing few winch launches". That's true.
Compare=
d to the roughly one million annual launches in Germany, the UK doesn't
do
=
many either. That, and their superb safety record, makes Germany a far
bet=
ter source of safety information.

If you want an educational approach, read my thoughts on the acceleration
p=
hase and acceleration induced uncommanded rotation.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...celeration.pdf

I can't comment on why your experience is what it is, but the BGA is clearly concerned about "cartwheel" accidents.

Aero tow uses a nose hook so the consequences of a wing drop are much less.

With the glider achieving flying speed in 3 - 4 seconds that's not much to distinguish why earlier or later drop is worse. It's bad whenever it happens.

On Sunday, October 13, 2013 1:35:38 PM UTC-6, Terry Walsh wrote:
OK Bill, here is my problem with your argument that all our problems are

basically due to too slow acceleration.



1. I have not seen or experienced these slow acceleration launches and they

are certainly not the norm at any site at which I have flown recently.



2. I have also auto towed (some years ago) where the acceleration is by

definition slow, I never saw a wing drop come close to an accident.



3. The same applies to aerotows, slow acceleration, here I have seen wing

drops and witnessed people releasing but no cartwheels.



4. The reason these wing drops have been fatal is that they occur just

before the glider ls ready to fly. in my mind this implies that the

acceleration was fast since the glider apparently goes from insufficient

aileron control to flying speed too quickly for the pilot to react. I

think perhaps , as Don said that the problem is actually yaw induced roll.



Based on what you say we in the UK have a much worse safety record than the

Germans, so accepting this I agree that we are apparently not getting

something right. I do not agree with your analysis and you have shown no

readiness to accept that there may be another different problem. This is

what I mean by arrogance. If as you say everybody outside UK agrees with

your argument why have none of them posted here to say so.



I think it is a problem caused by individual pilot errors rather than our

procedures. Why I am not sure although I do have some thoughts regarding

pilot currency.



Terry Walsh





At 17:47 13 October 2013, Bill D wrote:

On Thursday, October 10, 2013 4:05:22 AM UTC-6, Terry Walsh wrote:

Fred,

=20

=20

=20

I did not intend this as a comment against Americans I know equally

=20

arrogant people of many different national origins. I was simply

commenti=

ng

=20

that if this indeed Bill Daniels then he could be considered to be an

=20

expert on winch operations, but his apparent refusal to accept any

other

=20

opinion than his own was more than a little arrogant.



I've let the UK "echo chamber" run a bit so they can all congratulate

each

=

other for fuzzy thinking.



Arrogant? Indignant and angry are a better words. Every time you screw

up=

, it has enormous impact outside the UK. When those screw-ups are based

on=

institutionalized nonsense, and you try to export that nonsense, it

makes

=

me angry. An example is the winch launch section in the 2013 Glider

Flying=

Handbook.



The main source of my guidance isn't from the US, or my own imagination,

i=

t's the German SDO Segelflugbetriebsordnung. It contains about the best

inf=

ormation on winch launch safety available.



The US stands accused of "doing few winch launches". That's true.

Compare=

d to the roughly one million annual launches in Germany, the UK doesn't

do

=

many either. That, and their superb safety record, makes Germany a far

bet=

ter source of safety information.



If you want an educational approach, read my thoughts on the acceleration

p=

hase and acceleration induced uncommanded rotation.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...celeration.pdf