Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!

On Monday, October 7, 2013 5:33:57 AM UTC-6, Andrew Henderson wrote:
Re winch launching. You guy's might like to check out the very

useful Safe winching leaflet and associated information put out by

the BGA after much thought and refinement of the process's. This

has resulted in a significant reduction in the number of

accidents/injury's in the UK from winch launching.



http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...hlaunching.htm



Regards



Andy

Yes, a reduction in accidents to the point where you're now only one order of magnitude worse than the Germans instead of two.

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 12:53:26 PM UTC-4, Soartech wrote:
Along this line, many self-launchers have small in-line
skate wheels on the wingtips so they can start with the
wing already touching the runway. Perhaps a simple retrofit
could save your gel-coat (or your life).

Without a steerable tail-wheel and enough tail weight to make
it actually steer, tip wheels merely avoid scraping the wingtip
finish as you ground-loop.

As some who have observed interesting Whale take-offs can attest ;-)

OTH, as it has a proper steerable tail-wheel, I normally
take off without a wing-tip runner in Antares...

Wingtip wheels would help airtow wing drops -- and encourage a lot more toughing it out and waiting for the wing to come up. Especially with water, and double especially with half water, they're not ideal. I'm not a winch expert, but I assume wingtip wheels would be of little help in those accidents..


John Cochrane

Oh dear....

I do not wish to be associated with this post.

My post to Bill was rather direct, for which I will not apologize, however
the post below is unnecessary.

Bill, you have not identified yourself as Bill Daniels? You have not
addressed if your are in fact and authority on the subject or why you are
dismissive of the professionals opinion?

The leaflet that has been produced by the BGA and posted in this thread was
(in part) drafted by Peter Claiden who has been a glider pilot for as long
as I have been alive, but has also just received an OBE from HRH The Queen
on his retirement from the AAIB.

I think I am inclined to value his judgment.

JC


At 16:59 09 October 2013, Fred Bear wrote:
Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.

On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:
Hi Justin,

I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhaps
be
an
expert.

I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
somewhat ironic.

Terry Walsh





At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
Bill,

I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record,
what
authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you
are
so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals
who
have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.

If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
opinions
to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the
subject,
I
will bow to your superior judgement.

Regards,

Justin


At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type
of

accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come
up

with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a
symptom
and

requires that the glider is released very early which is why the
hand

should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
month

back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
glider

was written off.

What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
earth

is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release,
to

mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.



The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else
has.

Well said Justin & likewise I wish no association to arrogant behaviour and

rude postings about a persons origin, place of residence or physical
defining
features.

I value people's opinions even when I believe they are incorrect or
significantly misaligned with factual evidence, it's what allows me to take
a
balanced view on a subject.

I get particularly hacked off when people of 'authority' belittle genuine
effort
that is conducted by a few for the benefit of many others, especially when

those few give so much of their time in trying to address significant
safety
issues which affect us all.

If the evidence really does show that BGA winch launching incidents are now

reduced from double to a single magnitude worse than our German
counterparts then well done guys - let's keep on going with reducing it
further!

Bill - please take this in the spirit that it is intended, as I have never
met you
and only know of you what you post here. But your attitude does remind me
of the "shouty" instructor syndrome that we have tried very hard to
eradicate
in the country that I fly in - an unhelpful and dangerous position of
authority
that needs to be banished to history.

Proactive positive teaching is required here, not reactive dismissive
comment.
I truly believe the BGA initiatives are pushing hard with the former and
long
may this continue.

Must go as I need a cup of tea and they are about to play God save the
Queen at closedown on the Beeb.

Imperial, my arse (ass).

GG



At 19:35 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
Oh dear....

I do not wish to be associated with this post.

My post to Bill was rather direct, for which I will not apologize, howeve
the post below is unnecessary.

Bill, you have not identified yourself as Bill Daniels? You have no
addressed if your are in fact and authority on the subject or why you ar
dismissive of the professionals opinion?

The leaflet that has been produced by the BGA and posted in this thread
wa
(in part) drafted by Peter Claiden who has been a glider pilot for as lon
as I have been alive, but has also just received an OBE from HRH The Quee
on his retirement from the AAIB.

I think I am inclined to value his judgment.

JC


At 16:59 09 October 2013, Fred Bear wrote:
Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.

On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:
Hi Justin,

I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhap
be
an
expert.

I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
somewhat ironic.

Terry Walsh





At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
Bill,

I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record
what
authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you
are
so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professional
who
have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.

If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
opinions
to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in th
subject,
I
will bow to your superior judgement.

Regards,

Justin


At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone
wrote:

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this typ
of

accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has
come
up

with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is
symptom
and

requires that the glider is released very early which is why th
hand

should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
month

back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
glider

was written off.

What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
earth

is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early
release,
to

mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.



The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else
has.

My LAK-17a has wheels like the first picture in this link:
http://www.williamssoaring.com/catal...ane-parts.html

They work great on pavement, but are useless on grass.


"Soartech" wrote in message
...
JC wrote:
The answer: either retractable or disposable pogo sticks on the wingtips,
or mid-wing. Something that keeps the wings level to 25 mph and then
either drops off or retracts into the wing.

Along this line, many self-launchers have small in-line skate wheels on
the wingtips so they can start with the wing already touching the runway.
Perhaps a simple retrofit could save your gel-coat (or your life).
As for dropable pogo sticks, hang gliders that aerotow often use a 3
wheeled launch cart(with a wide stance)to keep the wing level until it
flies away from the cart. No one wants to lift their sailplane into a cart
so this won't work for us. :-)

Long grass or other vegetatation, and rough surfaces of any
kind can make ground loop or cartwheel type winching accidents
more likely. Small wingtip wheels are probably more likely to
snag in grass than skids.

BTW, UK winch launches using modern high powered winches
give the much the same acceleration as German or anybody
else's winch launches. 0-50 knots in about 3 seconds to give
almost immediate aileron control. Any faster than this produces
additional problems, particularly tail-banging, dangerous over-
rotation with the risk of a stall/spin, and pilots sliding back in
sailplane types with very reclining seats. N.B. always do your
straps up as tightly as possible for winch launching.

Derek Copeland

At 23:44 09 October 2013, Dan Marotta wrote:
My LAK-17a has wheels like the first picture in this link:
http://www.williamssoaring.com/catal...ane-parts.html

They work great on pavement, but are useless on grass.


"Soartech" wrote in message
news:facbc642-bebd-4794-a53b-
...
JC wrote:
The answer: either retractable or disposable pogo sticks on
the
wingtips,
or mid-wing. Something that keeps the wings level to 25
mph and then
either drops off or retracts into the wing.

Along this line, many self-launchers have small in-line skate
wheels on
the wingtips so they can start with the wing already touching
the runway.

Perhaps a simple retrofit could save your gel-coat (or your
life).
As for dropable pogo sticks, hang gliders that aerotow often
use a 3
wheeled launch cart(with a wide stance)to keep the wing
level until it
flies away from the cart. No one wants to lift their sailplane
into a
cart
so this won't work for us. :-)

We have had a couple of minor accidents at our site where a
glider has dropped a wing on aerotow and lost directional
control. One of there involved a competition glider striking some
spectators, causing injuries. The holding the release knob thing
is really for winch launching, where things can go horribly wrong
very quickly, but there is also a case for doing so in the early
stages of an aerotow. If you lose directional control, you can pull
off before you gain too much energy. You should not reset flaps
until good aileron control has been established anyway. Some
people like to keep their airbrakes open for the first few
seconds, as this is supposed to improve aileron control (I'm not
convinced), so you would need a third arm to do this, hold the
stick and hold the release knob. The other good reason is that if
you are already holding the release knob, you are less likely to
pull the wrong knob in an emergency. As an instructor, I have
had students operate the airbrakes, open the canopy or retract
the wheel when trying to release from tow!

Derek Copeland


At 16:36 04 October 2013, wrote:
I have seen several videos on youtube lately where the glider
pilot holds
t=
he tow release handle during all parts tow. I've been told it is
taught
th=
is way by some in the UK. Sorry to pick on you folks on the
other side of
=
the pond as I love your country and can't wait to come over
and glide with
=
you in the next few years. =20

It seems to me that holding the handle during aero tow is a
recipe for
disa=
ster eventually.

We have all hit big bumps and turbulence down low on tow.
Why risk
accident=
ally pulling the release at 50ft or 100ft in the air? If you are
saying
it=
is so that you can immediately pull the handle if something
goes bad on
to=
w, it might not be a good enough reason due to the risks of a
accidental
re=
lease. Keep your hand on your knee or the flaps handle right
next to the
r=
elease and I bet you can pull it just as quickly and you don't
have to
worr=
y about messing up a perfectly good tow down low. Am I
missing something
he=
re?

Your thoughts? This just seems like a big safety mistake and I
would hate
f=
or people who see these videos and then think it is the right
and correct
t=
hing to do.

Have fun and fly safe,
Bruno - B4
www.youtube.com/bviv

Fred,

I did not intend this as a comment against Americans I know equally
arrogant people of many different national origins. I was simply commenting
that if this indeed Bill Daniels then he could be considered to be an
expert on winch operations, but his apparent refusal to accept any other
opinion than his own was more than a little arrogant. Since he had
mentioned imperial arrogance I found this ironic.

I do agree with his statement that accidental death is ugly whether caused
by incompetence or any other reason.

Terry Walsh


At 16:59 09 October 2013, Fred Bear wrote:
Well said. Just another big-mouthed Ugly American.

On 10/9/2013 11:45 AM, Terry Walsh wrote:
Hi Justin,

I suspect that this is Bill Daniels, a Google search for Bill Daniels
gliding shows that IN the USA in any case he is considered to perhaps
be
an
expert.

I suspect that by such comments as "imperial arrogance" he is most
certainly not an Anglophile and to be honest find the arrogance part
somewhat ironic.

Terry Walsh





At 12:56 09 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
Bill,

I have watched this tread with some interest. Just for the record,
what
authority are you on the subject? I find it very interesting that you
are
so dismissive of the hours of research done by trained professionals
who
have considerable amount of date and past cases to work with.

If this is your humble opinion, look after yourself, but keep your
opinions
to yourself. If how ever you are some sort of authority in the
subject,
I
will bow to your superior judgement.

Regards,

Justin


At 16:52 08 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:05:57 PM UTC-6, Don Johnstone wrote:

All John says is absolutely correct. The sad fact is that this type
of

accident occurs on a fairly regular basis and as yet no one has come
up

with a plausible cause. What is clear that the wing drop is a
symptom
and

requires that the glider is released very early which is why the
hand

should be on the release. A similar accident happened at my club a
month

back involving a Discus, in that case the pilot was unhurt but the
glider

was written off.

What is clear is that once the glider starts to yaw nothing on this
earth

is going to stop it except contact with the ground so early release,
to

mitigate the inevitable accident, is essential.



The sad fact is the UK hasn't figured out the cause - everyone else
has.

On Friday, October 4, 2013 12:36:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
It seems to me that holding the handle during aero tow is
a recipe for disaster eventually.

Perhaps you will find this thread helpful:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!ms...E/iVlQ0f2L3BMJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec....E/2GGBShuhs2oJ