Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!

That's what we told to do when we first acquired our Tost
winches at Lasham, in order to contain the speed and get the
highest possible launches. Prior to that we autotowed, where you
had to initially climb quite gently as the acceleration was slow
and it took time to build up a safe speed. After a few cases when
K8's and similar lightweight gliders went into near vertical climbs
before breaking the weak link, we backed off the instruction.
Fortunately we didn't kill any of the pilots. Dunstable went on
launching quite steeply for some years until they had a fatality
caused by a flick spin. Certainly when we visited that club we
always used to hold our breath as we watched them winch
launching gliders. Some German pilots seem to pull up more
steeply than we now do, and I note from the accident statistics
published earlier in this thread that they have had a couple of
flick spin fatalities in recent times.

Derek Copeland

At 09:29 11 October 2013, John Galloway wrote:
At 06:31 11 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote:
One of the reasons the UK historically had a poor winch
launching safety record was that we copied German methods.
In
particular, when we first had powerful German Tost winches
we
were told to start with the stick hard back to contain the
speed.
This led to a number of (usually fatal) flick spin accidents, so
we
realised that this was not a good idea, as have the Germans.
We
now start with the stick forward of centre and control the
rotation rate, and haven't had a flick spin accident for several
years.


Del, when you say "we copied the German methods etc" - who
is
the "we"? It was 1969 that I first trained and soloed on the
winch
in the UK and I have never personally encountered instruction
to
start a winch launch with the stick hard back to contain the
speed.

John Galloway

At Dunstable we operate a 6 drum Van Gelda winch and have done so for some
25+ years. It has NEVER been taught to start the launch with the stick on
the back stop, in fact quite the reverse then followed by gentle rotation
into a steeper climb. Given the operational restrictions of the site, we do
climb "steeper" than at other sites, however certainly NOT before we have a
safe height and safe airspeed to do so.


At 10:20 11 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote:
That's what we told to do when we first acquired our Tost
winches at Lasham, in order to contain the speed and get the
highest possible launches. Prior to that we autotowed, where you
had to initially climb quite gently as the acceleration was slow
and it took time to build up a safe speed. After a few cases when
K8's and similar lightweight gliders went into near vertical climbs
before breaking the weak link, we backed off the instruction.
Fortunately we didn't kill any of the pilots. Dunstable went on
launching quite steeply for some years until they had a fatality
caused by a flick spin. Certainly when we visited that club we
always used to hold our breath as we watched them winch
launching gliders. Some German pilots seem to pull up more
steeply than we now do, and I note from the accident statistics
published earlier in this thread that they have had a couple of
flick spin fatalities in recent times.

Derek Copeland

At 09:29 11 October 2013, John Galloway wrote:
At 06:31 11 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote:
One of the reasons the UK historically had a poor winch
launching safety record was that we copied German methods.
In
particular, when we first had powerful German Tost winches
we
were told to start with the stick hard back to contain the
speed.
This led to a number of (usually fatal) flick spin accidents, so
we
realised that this was not a good idea, as have the Germans.
We
now start with the stick forward of centre and control the
rotation rate, and haven't had a flick spin accident for several
years.


Del, when you say "we copied the German methods etc" - who
is
the "we"? It was 1969 that I first trained and soloed on the
winch
in the UK and I have never personally encountered instruction
to
start a winch launch with the stick hard back to contain the
speed.

John Galloway

I have visited your site (Dunstable) quite recently and your
winch launches look pretty much the same as what we do at
Lasham these days, presumably because you have taken on
board the recommendations of the BGA Safe Winch Launching
Initiative. This hasn't always been the case, as your launches
used to make us gasp when we visited. The explanation given
was that you have a small site and had to get to get the most
height out of your launches. BTW I don't believe a reasonably
gentle and controlled rotation costs any launch height. You might
get a momentary overspeed, which is not critical low down, but
this then gets converted back into height as you pull back to
control the speed once established in the full climb.

Derek Copeland

At 11:20 11 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
At Dunstable we operate a 6 drum Van Gelda winch and have
done so for some
25+ years. It has NEVER been taught to start the launch with
the stick on
the back stop, in fact quite the reverse then followed by gentle
rotation
into a steeper climb. Given the operational restrictions of the
site, we do
climb "steeper" than at other sites, however certainly NOT
before we have a
safe height and safe airspeed to do so.


At 10:20 11 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote:
That's what we told to do when we first acquired our Tost
winches at Lasham, in order to contain the speed and get the
highest possible launches. Prior to that we autotowed, where
you
had to initially climb quite gently as the acceleration was slow
and it took time to build up a safe speed. After a few cases
when
K8's and similar lightweight gliders went into near vertical
climbs
before breaking the weak link, we backed off the instruction.
Fortunately we didn't kill any of the pilots. Dunstable went on
launching quite steeply for some years until they had a
fatality
caused by a flick spin. Certainly when we visited that club we
always used to hold our breath as we watched them winch
launching gliders. Some German pilots seem to pull up more
steeply than we now do, and I note from the accident
statistics
published earlier in this thread that they have had a couple of
flick spin fatalities in recent times.

Derek Copeland

At 09:29 11 October 2013, John Galloway wrote:
At 06:31 11 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote:
One of the reasons the UK historically had a poor winch
launching safety record was that we copied German
methods.
In
particular, when we first had powerful German Tost
winches
we
were told to start with the stick hard back to contain the
speed.
This led to a number of (usually fatal) flick spin accidents,
so
we
realised that this was not a good idea, as have the
Germans.
We
now start with the stick forward of centre and control the
rotation rate, and haven't had a flick spin accident for
several
years.


Del, when you say "we copied the German methods etc" -
who
is
the "we"? It was 1969 that I first trained and soloed on the
winch
in the UK and I have never personally encountered
instruction
to
start a winch launch with the stick hard back to contain the
speed.

John Galloway

This discussion, that started as one about whether to hold the release
during an aerotow launch, has focussed on the risk to the glider pilot if a
wing drops during the launch and subsequently migrated to become a debate
about winch launch techniques.

The poor chap who has been forgotten in all this is the tug pilot! Over
the years a number of tug pilots in different countries have been killed by
glider pilots getting out of position and going too high too quickly. This
results in a big reduction in the tug's airspeed towards the stall, and
since it no longer has enough elevator authority the glider raises the
tugs tail and points it at the ground. Below about 700' a tug upset is
probably fatal for the tug pilot - but only a minor inconvenience to the
glider pilot.

Tug upsets, once triggered, occur in a very short elapsed time period -
probably two or three seconds. This does not give the glider pilot time to
search for the cable release and pull it so as to save the tug pilot's
life.

On aerotow a glider pilot should have his hand touching the release, or
holding a loop of nylon connected to it, if the stick movement would
otherwise be restricted until at least 1,000'. Tug pilots are doing you a
service. Respect them by being able to release instantly if the tow goes
wrong.

One entry in this thread stated that tows can be very rough and that the
release might get pulled by accident. Much better that than kill a tug
pilot.

Totally agree George. However the tug pilot should have a
release at his end which he is perfectly entitled to pull if things
are getting out of hand.

Derek Copeland

At 13:17 11 October 2013, George Knight wrote:
This discussion, that started as one about whether to hold the
release
during an aerotow launch, has focussed on the risk to the
glider pilot if a
wing drops during the launch and subsequently migrated to
become a debate
about winch launch techniques.

The poor chap who has been forgotten in all this is the tug
pilot! Over
the years a number of tug pilots in different countries have
been killed by
glider pilots getting out of position and going too high too
quickly. This
results in a big reduction in the tug's airspeed towards the stall,
and
since it no longer has enough elevator authority the glider
raises the
tugs tail and points it at the ground. Below about 700' a tug
upset is
probably fatal for the tug pilot - but only a minor inconvenience
to the
glider pilot.

Tug upsets, once triggered, occur in a very short elapsed time
period -
probably two or three seconds. This does not give the glider
pilot time to
search for the cable release and pull it so as to save the tug
pilot's
life.

On aerotow a glider pilot should have his hand touching the
release, or
holding a loop of nylon connected to it, if the stick movement
would
otherwise be restricted until at least 1,000'. Tug pilots are
doing you a
service. Respect them by being able to release instantly if the
tow goes
wrong.

One entry in this thread stated that tows can be very rough
and that the
release might get pulled by accident. Much better that than kill
a tug
pilot.

Agreed, but depending on the tug being flown this may be more difficult
than for the glider pilot. The tug pilot will normally have one hand on
the stick and the other on the throttle/gas so at a moment when he is
probably being subjected to a violent downward 'bunt' he needs to let go of
something (the throttle), look for the release, grab it and operate it. On
some tugs the release is near the throttle, on others it is in the roof, it
may be on his left when he has his right hand on the throttle. Evidence
suggests that tug pilots are not able to react fast enough.

The onus must be on the glider pilot not to put the tug and its pilot at
risk. If the glider pilot has his hand touching the release:
1. He/she can pull it faster than the tug.
2. The glider pilot is in a better position to see/realise that the tow is
going wrong. Unless the tug pilot is looking in the mirror at the right
moment, by the time he feels the speed going and the nose dropping it is
probably too late if he is much below 1,000'.

At 14:11 11 October 2013, Del Copeland wrote:
Totally agree George. However the tug pilot should have a
release at his end which he is perfectly entitled to pull if things
are getting out of hand.

Derek Copeland

At 13:17 11 October 2013, George Knight wrote:
This discussion, that started as one about whether to hold the
release
during an aerotow launch, has focussed on the risk to the
glider pilot if a
wing drops during the launch and subsequently migrated to
become a debate
about winch launch techniques.

The poor chap who has been forgotten in all this is the tug
pilot! Over
the years a number of tug pilots in different countries have
been killed by
glider pilots getting out of position and going too high too
quickly. This
results in a big reduction in the tug's airspeed towards the stall,
and
since it no longer has enough elevator authority the glider
raises the
tugs tail and points it at the ground. Below about 700' a tug
upset is
probably fatal for the tug pilot - but only a minor inconvenience
to the
glider pilot.

Tug upsets, once triggered, occur in a very short elapsed time
period -
probably two or three seconds. This does not give the glider
pilot time to
search for the cable release and pull it so as to save the tug
pilot's
life.

On aerotow a glider pilot should have his hand touching the
release, or
holding a loop of nylon connected to it, if the stick movement
would
otherwise be restricted until at least 1,000'. Tug pilots are
doing you a
service. Respect them by being able to release instantly if the
tow goes
wrong.

One entry in this thread stated that tows can be very rough
and that the
release might get pulled by accident. Much better that than kill
a tug
pilot.

At 15:09 11 October 2013, George Knight wrote:
Agreed, but depending on the tug being flown this may be more difficult
than for the glider pilot. The tug pilot will normally have one hand on
the stick and the other on the throttle/gas so at a moment when he is
probably being subjected to a violent downward 'bunt' he needs to let go
of
something (the throttle), look for the release, grab it and operate it.
On
some tugs the release is near the throttle, on others it is in the roof,
it
may be on his left when he has his right hand on the throttle. Evidence
suggests that tug pilots are not able to react fast enough.

The onus must be on the glider pilot not to put the tug and its pilot at
risk. If the glider pilot has his hand touching the release:
1. He/she can pull it faster than the tug.
2. The glider pilot is in a better position to see/realise that the tow
is
going wrong. Unless the tug pilot is looking in the mirror at the right
moment, by the time he feels the speed going and the nose dropping it is
probably too late if he is much below 1,000'.

Following the accident at Aboyne in which Stan Easton lost his life one of
the requirements for UK tugs is that the release must always be adjacent to
the throttle. I have seen banner towing tugs where it is not but for glider
towing I understood that it was a requirement.

On Friday, October 11, 2013 7:17:42 AM UTC-6, George Knight wrote:
This discussion, that started as one about whether to hold the release

during an aerotow launch, has focussed on the risk to the glider pilot if a

wing drops during the launch and subsequently migrated to become a debate

about winch launch techniques.



The poor chap who has been forgotten in all this is the tug pilot! Over

the years a number of tug pilots in different countries have been killed by

glider pilots getting out of position and going too high too quickly. This

results in a big reduction in the tug's airspeed towards the stall, and

since it no longer has enough elevator authority the glider raises the

tugs tail and points it at the ground. Below about 700' a tug upset is

probably fatal for the tug pilot - but only a minor inconvenience to the

glider pilot.



Tug upsets, once triggered, occur in a very short elapsed time period -

probably two or three seconds. This does not give the glider pilot time to

search for the cable release and pull it so as to save the tug pilot's

life.



On aerotow a glider pilot should have his hand touching the release, or

holding a loop of nylon connected to it, if the stick movement would

otherwise be restricted until at least 1,000'. Tug pilots are doing you a

service. Respect them by being able to release instantly if the tow goes

wrong.



One entry in this thread stated that tows can be very rough and that the

release might get pulled by accident. Much better that than kill a tug

pilot.

Hi George,
Thanks for your comments. You are correct that we do need to remember the amazing guys and gals up in the tow planes and remember the risks they take to tow us up for our own fun. That said, I would like to assert that there have been many more accidents and bent ships from gliders accidentally releasing at low altitudes because their hand was on the release than tow planes being pulled into the ground because a hand was NOT on the release.

Bruno - B4

At 16:54 11 October 2013, wrote:
Hi George,
Thanks for your comments. You are correct that we do need to
remember the
a=
mazing guys and gals up in the tow planes and remember the
risks they take
=
to tow us up for our own fun. That said, I would like to assert
that there
=
have been many more accidents and bent ships from gliders
accidentally
rele=
asing at low altitudes because their hand was on the release
than tow
plane=
s being pulled into the ground because a hand was NOT on the
release.=20

Bruno - B4


However.... it's not the number of accidents that really count, it's
both the number of occurrences and the severity of the outcome
you need to consider. The pilot of a "bent ship" released
accidentally at low altitude will probably walk away with only his
pride and wallet dented. The tug pilot in an upset incident will
almost certainly not walk away. So you can't simply choose
between the two assuming they are equally serious. To stop the
serious/fatal accident you may have to put up with a slight
increase in non-serious accidents. So if someone does
accidentally release because they hit turbulence, scrapes a
glider in the field they rapidly choose the lesson learned is not
"should have had my hand away from the release" it is "...these
things happen, at least you didn't kill the tug pilot too"

In my own experience the time between the last "if the rope
breaks now I will land ahead" and the first ""if the rope breaks
now I will return to the airfield" is actually quit small, even in the
most hostile terrain, and doing this in your head every launch
certainly focus the mind to not accidentally release where it
really matters

The main thing is to ensure that the glider pilot's arm is not at full
stretch when holding the release knob, so there is a bit of slack in
the system and he is not likely to pull it accidentally due to
turbulence etc. Perhaps an extension cord should be attached if
the release knob is difficult to get at or too far away.
Derek Copeland


Hi George,
Thanks for your comments. You are correct that we do need to
remember the
a=
mazing guys and gals up in the tow planes and remember the
risks they take
=
to tow us up for our own fun. That said, I would like to assert that
there
=
have been many more accidents and bent ships from gliders
accidentally
rele=
asing at low altitudes because their hand was on the release than
tow
plane=
s being pulled into the ground because a hand was NOT on the
release.=20

Bruno - B4