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#1
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OK Bill, here is my problem with your argument that all our problems are
basically due to too slow acceleration. 1. I have not seen or experienced these slow acceleration launches and they are certainly not the norm at any site at which I have flown recently. 2. I have also auto towed (some years ago) where the acceleration is by definition slow, I never saw a wing drop come close to an accident. 3. The same applies to aerotows, slow acceleration, here I have seen wing drops and witnessed people releasing but no cartwheels. 4. The reason these wing drops have been fatal is that they occur just before the glider ls ready to fly. in my mind this implies that the acceleration was fast since the glider apparently goes from insufficient aileron control to flying speed too quickly for the pilot to react. I think perhaps , as Don said that the problem is actually yaw induced roll. Based on what you say we in the UK have a much worse safety record than the Germans, so accepting this I agree that we are apparently not getting something right. I do not agree with your analysis and you have shown no readiness to accept that there may be another different problem. This is what I mean by arrogance. If as you say everybody outside UK agrees with your argument why have none of them posted here to say so. I think it is a problem caused by individual pilot errors rather than our procedures. Why I am not sure although I do have some thoughts regarding pilot currency. Terry Walsh At 17:47 13 October 2013, Bill D wrote: On Thursday, October 10, 2013 4:05:22 AM UTC-6, Terry Walsh wrote: Fred, =20 =20 =20 I did not intend this as a comment against Americans I know equally =20 arrogant people of many different national origins. I was simply commenti= ng =20 that if this indeed Bill Daniels then he could be considered to be an =20 expert on winch operations, but his apparent refusal to accept any other =20 opinion than his own was more than a little arrogant. I've let the UK "echo chamber" run a bit so they can all congratulate each = other for fuzzy thinking. Arrogant? Indignant and angry are a better words. Every time you screw up= , it has enormous impact outside the UK. When those screw-ups are based on= institutionalized nonsense, and you try to export that nonsense, it makes = me angry. An example is the winch launch section in the 2013 Glider Flying= Handbook. The main source of my guidance isn't from the US, or my own imagination, i= t's the German SDO Segelflugbetriebsordnung. It contains about the best inf= ormation on winch launch safety available. The US stands accused of "doing few winch launches". That's true. Compare= d to the roughly one million annual launches in Germany, the UK doesn't do = many either. That, and their superb safety record, makes Germany a far bet= ter source of safety information. If you want an educational approach, read my thoughts on the acceleration p= hase and acceleration induced uncommanded rotation. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...celeration.pdf |
#2
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I can't comment on why your experience is what it is, but the BGA is clearly concerned about "cartwheel" accidents.
Aero tow uses a nose hook so the consequences of a wing drop are much less. With the glider achieving flying speed in 3 - 4 seconds that's not much to distinguish why earlier or later drop is worse. It's bad whenever it happens. On Sunday, October 13, 2013 1:35:38 PM UTC-6, Terry Walsh wrote: OK Bill, here is my problem with your argument that all our problems are basically due to too slow acceleration. 1. I have not seen or experienced these slow acceleration launches and they are certainly not the norm at any site at which I have flown recently. 2. I have also auto towed (some years ago) where the acceleration is by definition slow, I never saw a wing drop come close to an accident. 3. The same applies to aerotows, slow acceleration, here I have seen wing drops and witnessed people releasing but no cartwheels. 4. The reason these wing drops have been fatal is that they occur just before the glider ls ready to fly. in my mind this implies that the acceleration was fast since the glider apparently goes from insufficient aileron control to flying speed too quickly for the pilot to react. I think perhaps , as Don said that the problem is actually yaw induced roll. Based on what you say we in the UK have a much worse safety record than the Germans, so accepting this I agree that we are apparently not getting something right. I do not agree with your analysis and you have shown no readiness to accept that there may be another different problem. This is what I mean by arrogance. If as you say everybody outside UK agrees with your argument why have none of them posted here to say so. I think it is a problem caused by individual pilot errors rather than our procedures. Why I am not sure although I do have some thoughts regarding pilot currency. Terry Walsh At 17:47 13 October 2013, Bill D wrote: On Thursday, October 10, 2013 4:05:22 AM UTC-6, Terry Walsh wrote: Fred, =20 =20 =20 I did not intend this as a comment against Americans I know equally =20 arrogant people of many different national origins. I was simply commenti= ng =20 that if this indeed Bill Daniels then he could be considered to be an =20 expert on winch operations, but his apparent refusal to accept any other =20 opinion than his own was more than a little arrogant. I've let the UK "echo chamber" run a bit so they can all congratulate each = other for fuzzy thinking. Arrogant? Indignant and angry are a better words. Every time you screw up= , it has enormous impact outside the UK. When those screw-ups are based on= institutionalized nonsense, and you try to export that nonsense, it makes = me angry. An example is the winch launch section in the 2013 Glider Flying= Handbook. The main source of my guidance isn't from the US, or my own imagination, i= t's the German SDO Segelflugbetriebsordnung. It contains about the best inf= ormation on winch launch safety available. The US stands accused of "doing few winch launches". That's true. Compare= d to the roughly one million annual launches in Germany, the UK doesn't do = many either. That, and their superb safety record, makes Germany a far bet= ter source of safety information. If you want an educational approach, read my thoughts on the acceleration p= hase and acceleration induced uncommanded rotation. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...celeration.pdf |
#3
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Many earlier gliders in the UK are not fitted with nose hooks, just
belly hooks, but we still don't get any cartwheel accidents on aerotow. There is a slightly increased risk of tug upsets due to the glider trying to 'winch launch' after take off if the pilot allows the glider to get too high (so still a good case for keeping your hand on the release knob during the early stages of an aerotow). Likewise wire launching by autotow on the belly hook did not cause cartwheel accidents, despite the slower ground run acceleration. The difference with high powered winch launches is that you are putting in much more energy much more quickly, so the consequences of a wing drop are much more serious. What happens is that the wingtip contacts the ground, drags, causes the glider to yaw, so that the other wing speeds up and produces more lift, adding roll to the yaw and the glider lifts off with one wing still on the ground. Then the other wing gets up into the wind gradient and produces even more lift, and at this point you are history. The safety message is 'keep your wings level and pull off immediately if you can't'. Derek Copeland At 02:09 14 October 2013, Bill D wrote: I can't comment on why your experience is what it is, but the BGA is clearly concerned about "cartwheel" accidents. Aero tow uses a nose hook so the consequences of a wing drop are much less. With the glider achieving flying speed in 3 - 4 seconds that's not much to distinguish why earlier or later drop is worse. It's bad whenever it happens. On Sunday, October 13, 2013 1:35:38 PM UTC-6, Terry Walsh wrote: OK Bill, here is my problem with your argument that all our problems are basically due to too slow acceleration. 1. I have not seen or experienced these slow acceleration launches and they are certainly not the norm at any site at which I have flown recently. 2. I have also auto towed (some years ago) where the acceleration is by definition slow, I never saw a wing drop come close to an accident. 3. The same applies to aerotows, slow acceleration, here I have seen wing drops and witnessed people releasing but no cartwheels. 4. The reason these wing drops have been fatal is that they occur just before the glider ls ready to fly. in my mind this implies that the acceleration was fast since the glider apparently goes from insufficient aileron control to flying speed too quickly for the pilot to react. I think perhaps , as Don said that the problem is actually yaw induced roll. Based on what you say we in the UK have a much worse safety record than the Germans, so accepting this I agree that we are apparently not getting something right. I do not agree with your analysis and you have shown no readiness to accept that there may be another different problem. This is what I mean by arrogance. If as you say everybody outside UK agrees with your argument why have none of them posted here to say so. I think it is a problem caused by individual pilot errors rather than our procedures. Why I am not sure although I do have some thoughts regarding pilot currency. Terry Walsh At 17:47 13 October 2013, Bill D wrote: On Thursday, October 10, 2013 4:05:22 AM UTC-6, Terry Walsh wrote: Fred, =20 =20 =20 I did not intend this as a comment against Americans I know equally =20 arrogant people of many different national origins. I was simply commenti= ng =20 that if this indeed Bill Daniels then he could be considered to be an =20 expert on winch operations, but his apparent refusal to accept any other =20 opinion than his own was more than a little arrogant. I've let the UK "echo chamber" run a bit so they can all congratulate each = other for fuzzy thinking. Arrogant? Indignant and angry are a better words. Every time you screw up= , it has enormous impact outside the UK. When those screw-ups are based on= institutionalized nonsense, and you try to export that nonsense, it makes = me angry. An example is the winch launch section in the 2013 Glider Flying= Handbook. The main source of my guidance isn't from the US, or my own imagination, i= t's the German SDO Segelflugbetriebsordnung. It contains about the best inf= ormation on winch launch safety available. The US stands accused of "doing few winch launches". That's true. Compare= d to the roughly one million annual launches in Germany, the UK doesn't do = many either. That, and their superb safety record, makes Germany a far bet= ter source of safety information. If you want an educational approach, read my thoughts on the acceleration p= hase and acceleration induced uncommanded rotation. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Acceleration.p df |
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