Keep your hand off the release handle during aero tows!

Hi Bill,

Did you read Paul Ruskin's analysis of German and UK winch
launching accidents, which was number 66 in this thread. He
concluded that there was no significant difference between fatal
and serious accident rates between the two countries. I note that
Germany had about 4 accidents that came into the stall and flick
roll category while the UK only had one. Germany has about 5
times as many glider pilots as the UK. About 2/3rd's of UK glider
launches are by winch. As Skylaunch has sold many winches to
Germany and Tost to the UK, I assume that the winches are
similar and give the same rates of acceleration in both countries.

BTW, before we had winches at our club, we used to wire launch
by autotow, where the ground run acceleration was REALLY
slow, at least 10 seconds to lift off. I don't remember there
being any ground loop or cartwheel accidents on take off in that
era.

Derek Copeland

At 17:47 13 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Thursday, October 10, 2013 4:05:22 AM UTC-6, Terry
Walsh wrote:
Fred,
=20
=20
=20
I did not intend this as a comment against Americans I know
equally
=20
arrogant people of many different national origins. I was
simply
commenti=
ng
=20
that if this indeed Bill Daniels then he could be considered to
be an
=20
expert on winch operations, but his apparent refusal to
accept any other
=20
opinion than his own was more than a little arrogant.

I've let the UK "echo chamber" run a bit so they can all
congratulate each
=
other for fuzzy thinking.

Arrogant? Indignant and angry are a better words. Every
time you screw
up=
, it has enormous impact outside the UK. When those screw-
ups are based
on=
institutionalized nonsense, and you try to export that
nonsense, it makes
=
me angry. An example is the winch launch section in the 2013
Glider
Flying=
Handbook.

The main source of my guidance isn't from the US, or my own
imagination,
i=
t's the German SDO Segelflugbetriebsordnung. It contains
about the best
inf=
ormation on winch launch safety available.

The US stands accused of "doing few winch launches". That's
true.
Compare=
d to the roughly one million annual launches in Germany, the
UK doesn't do
=
many either. That, and their superb safety record, makes
Germany a far
bet=
ter source of safety information.

If you want an educational approach, read my thoughts on the
acceleration
p=
hase and acceleration induced uncommanded rotation.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Acceleration.p
df

I don't get accident statistics from RAS comments.

The Dropbox link has changed. See:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...celeration.pdf

I don't get instructions about how to fly safely from RAS comments.

On 14/10/13 03:03, Bill D wrote:
I don't get accident statistics from RAS comments.

The Dropbox link has changed. See:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...celeration.pdf

On Monday, October 14, 2013 3:03:44 AM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:
I don't get accident statistics from RAS comments.


Which would be an admirable position Bill, except that I took the trouble to go and find the accident reports from the BFU and BGA and posted a list of winch accidents in my comment, including sources and accident report numbers.

The data says that in the period 2006-12 a German pilot had much the same chance as a UK civilian pilot of being killed or injured in a winch accident.

Perhaps you'd let us know whether you now accept that conclusion, rather than claiming that UK winch launches are 10 times more dangerous?


Paul

On Monday, October 14, 2013 3:43:07 AM UTC-6, Paul Ruskin wrote:
On Monday, October 14, 2013 3:03:44 AM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:

I don't get accident statistics from RAS comments.





Which would be an admirable position Bill, except that I took the trouble to go and find the accident reports from the BFU and BGA and posted a list of winch accidents in my comment, including sources and accident report numbers.



The data says that in the period 2006-12 a German pilot had much the same chance as a UK civilian pilot of being killed or injured in a winch accident.



Perhaps you'd let us know whether you now accept that conclusion, rather than claiming that UK winch launches are 10 times more dangerous?





Paul

Yes, I read your ramble. The operable statistic is number of accidents per number of launches - very simple and not included in your post.

For 2011 (The numbers just look worse for the UK the further back one goes.)
The Germans suffered one accident every 180,000 launches
The UK suffered one every 16,000 launches.

That's better than 10:1 and the number can't be twisted to show parity.

Bill,

You have still not confirmed if you are in fact the highly regarded Bill
Daniels?

I hope you are not, because each time you post, you loose any credibility
by being rude and obnoxious. Why is it necessary to make statements such as
"Yes, I read your ramble"?

If you are the "real Bill Daniels" please let us know.

If you are not, I am sure the "real Bill Daniels" will be royally ****ed
off that you have been letting the wider population of the gliding
community assume that you are whilst blighting his good name!

Justin Craig

At 13:43 14 October 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Monday, October 14, 2013 3:43:07 AM UTC-6, Paul Ruskin wrote:
On Monday, October 14, 2013 3:03:44 AM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:

I don't get accident statistics from RAS comments.





Which would be an admirable position Bill, except that I took the
trouble
to go and find the accident reports from the BFU and BGA and posted a
list
of winch accidents in my comment, including sources and accident report
numbers.



The data says that in the period 2006-12 a German pilot had much the
same
chance as a UK civilian pilot of being killed or injured in a winch
accident.



Perhaps you'd let us know whether you now accept that conclusion,
rather
than claiming that UK winch launches are 10 times more dangerous?





Paul

Yes, I read your ramble. The operable statistic is number of accidents
per
number of launches - very simple and not included in your post.

For 2011 (The numbers just look worse for the UK the further back one
goes.)
The Germans suffered one accident every 180,000 launches
The UK suffered one every 16,000 launches.

That's better than 10:1 and the number can't be twisted to show parity.

On Monday, October 14, 2013 2:43:37 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:

Yes, I read your ramble. The operable statistic is number of accidents per number of launches - very simple and not included in your post.


OK. I note that you've avoided my question, which was whether we you agree with "The data says that in the period 2006-12 a German pilot had much the same chance as a UK civilian pilot of being killed or injured in a winch accident. "

So, I'll ask again - do you agree with that conclusion? I've provided all the data you need, and its source, and the calculation is simple.

Whether you think that's a good "operable statistic" or not is different. I happen to think it is - because then we don't confuse different reporting of incidents.

Paul

At 15:18 14 October 2013, Paul Ruskin wrote:
On Monday, October 14, 2013 2:43:37 PM UTC+1, Bill D
wrote:

Yes, I read your ramble. The operable statistic is number of
accidents
per number of launches - very simple and not included in your
post.


OK. I note that you've avoided my question, which was
whether we you agree
with "The data says that in the period 2006-12 a German pilot
had much the
same chance as a UK civilian pilot of being killed or injured in
a winch
accident. "

So, I'll ask again - do you agree with that conclusion? I've
provided all
the data you need, and its source, and the calculation is
simple.

Whether you think that's a good "operable statistic" or not is
different.
I happen to think it is - because then we don't confuse
different reporting
of incidents.

Paul


There can be no doubt when an injury or a fatality occurs and
such an event should always be reported and recorded in
gliding developed countries. I think we can all agree that no
country will over-report death and injury data. Therefore the
only way that comparison of death and injury rates between two
countries could *not* be based on valid operable statistics is if
you were to believe that one country is under-reporting them -
which would be an interesting propositon to put to the Germans.

John Galloway

John, Paul’s figures are for fatals and “serious� injuries, not all
injuries, AIUI. I would not be surprised if the definition of “serious�

differs.

Chris N

Bill D has gone remarkably quiet!


At 15:18 14 October 2013, Paul Ruskin wrote:
On Monday, October 14, 2013 2:43:37 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:

Yes, I read your ramble. The operable statistic is number of
accidents
per number of launches - very simple and not included in your
post.


OK. I note that you've avoided my question, which was
whether we you agree
with "The data says that in the period 2006-12 a German pilot
had much the
same chance as a UK civilian pilot of being killed or injured in a
winch
accident. "

So, I'll ask again - do you agree with that conclusion? I've
provided all
the data you need, and its source, and the calculation is
simple.

Whether you think that's a good "operable statistic" or not is
different.
I happen to think it is - because then we don't confuse different
reporting
of incidents.

Paul